I said it before upthread and it’s been more and more steadily ignored:

People are claiming that we want our loose passive opponents to call our 3bets with junk. But that junk *is not usually in a loose-passive’s raising range*. So either this argument is invalid, or it is about exploiting a different kind of player than loose passive.

Unless you are changing the definition of loose/passive "A style of play distinguished by playing a higher frequency of hands than others"

Yes it is. You raise/3 bet lighter, and you basically stop bluffing with what is describe as a loose passive. They want to call with their 10d7d, and then shrug call when they make middle pair and a backdoor draw.

I'm reminded of this backgammon article.

The backgammon details don't really matter, but basically at any point you can offer your opponent to double the stakes of the current game and they can either accept or forfeit the current score. So it's common to see expert backgammon players, when playing against weaker competition, avoiding games with huge doubling cube values because the only way the weaker player can win in the long run (e.g., in a match to 15) is to get a huge cube (the equivalent of a huge pot in poker) and get lucky and win.

Now, at poker ideally we'd all be way overrolled and have 100 buyins at our current cash game stake and not be fazed by losing a few hundred BB so we can take every edge. But I do find myself having similar thoughts -- if I think I have a big edge on the rest of the table, should I consider the risk of getting stacked and not playing my best afterwards? Is it worth getting it in on basically a coinflip pre when there are probably better spots? I think yes, this shouldn't be a reason to not 3bet, scared money is bad, we should be overrolled for the stakes we're playing, etc., but something to think about.

No 3 bet strategy seems like a terrible approach that is gonna lose us tons of possible EV. Its kind of funny that we even have this discussion, i mean come on.

You've seen this forums direction. Are you that surprised? People are tripping over each other to fold the 3rd nuts to V aggression.

Even if no one is actually advocating using this strategy, I think the discussion in these types of posts is more interesting than another random line check post (IMO). No need to get upset about having a discussion.

Also, as for the trend toward nittiness, perhaps people are subconsciously adjusting to the fact that no one would post most of these hands here if they didn’t get coolered.

Grunch: I think you’re going the wrong way here. In weak games I would target 3b’ing more not less. I recently retired (I’m 44) so I’ve been playing the week daytime $1/2 game a lot against the OMC/ retiree crowd. I apply a lot of pressure and print with a range I generally wouldn’t apply to a more competent crowd, though i think that might be a mistake. I may be able to use the same plan against the better players as well. Time will tell as I adjust.

This analogy would equate better to a tournament, where surviving is often important enough for you to fold +chip EV spots. In cash you should always take the most profitable line.

If you're uncomfortable in 3-bet pots, it's probably partially because you're not 3-betting enough.

Yeah, for sure. Its no surprise that i am quite dissapointed regarding the direction this forum have gone the last couple years. We are also losing quality posters because many of the discussions are on such a low level.

No 3 betting strategy, i am mean are you serious? This is some of the worst ive seen in a long freaking time. This forum makes me go on tilt instantly lately. Omg.

Browni is correct of course. If you arent comfortable playing 3 bet pots, chances are yuge that you arent 3 betting enough.

Like, 9 out of 10 players at LLSNL should probably 3 bet more- not less. Especially with all the lol sizingtells people are giving off so we can pinpoint them being on a weak ass range.

And to the players saying stuff like "But if i 3 bet pre here my hand will be faceup as aces or kings".

Your hand is only "faceup as aces or kings" if you simply arent 3 betting anything else than KK/AA. If so, the correct adjustment is to 3 bet wider, not to stop 3 betting at all.

Who specifically are you so upset at? Nobody is actually suggesting doing this. Not one person in the comments said it’s a good idea. Even OP asked “can anyone offer some insight on why it will lose EV?” The point is the discussion that this idea kicks off.

I am looking for inspiration or to possibly get some new input, new reflections or to learn something when i log onto this forum. I am not looking to read about whether we should stop 3 betting at all or if were gonna fold KK pre for 100 blinds. Or other ridicilous stuff.

It have built up over time, this thread is just another one amongst many over the last couple years.

Do we need a discussion why it is correct to open Aces pre? Or why we should be opening wider on the button than we do when UTG? No? Why not? Can anyone offer me some insight on why it will lose EV?

The discussion is being ridiculed because of how insane it is we are having it. If OP came in here about when to 3 bet, how light to 3 bet, or how to exploit it against their definition of loose passive, that's different. To take it out of the tool belt? Outrageous.

Back in the day those questions were moved to the beginners forum. llsnl is for mid level beginners.

Funny you should mention that one, because we do have the limp-reraise debate at least weekly.

(n=1, but those discussions were productive in the sense that they did eventually cause me to change my stance on limp-reraising. Pretty sure I'm the only one though.)

Then you might want to ask yourself why you feel the need to waste your energy responding to threads you feel are beneath you?

Everyone is on their own point in their own path. They're free to ask questions and others are free to answer/discuss/debate. And if a particular thread offers them no insight or anything of interest to them, they're also free to completely pass and move on to one that does.


Yes, very ironic, especially when you consider that I believe Gil himself (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) has even mentioned that he utilizes the limp/reraise method when conditions are right.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Just because we have that debate doesn't mean it isn't a terrible waste of time and energy. In fact, it's just another side of how terrible this forum is getting. I don't mean this as a flame, but you really needed a talk to understand why you should open with the strongest hand you can have pre? Ignoring extreme exploits of course.

Looks like it is time for Venice's railroad analogy again.

LLSNL is a way station, not a destination for no limit poker players. People come here from all different stages of their poker journey. For the most part, people come here having already played the game and have some of the basics down. They've either read a book or watched videos. However, there is much for them to learn because they don't really understand what they've seen. Our goal is provide the next level up. We also provide some entertainment and fun if we are doing our job well as mods.

For those who are chasing high stakes or professional status, you are going to move on. That can be coaching, self study or something else. 95% + of hand histories posted here are a result of Hero not have reads on the villain. If they had a read, they wouldn't need to post a HH. The answer would be obvious. If you're not looking to move up, for the most part you're going to move on to the rest of your life. That might including playing poker, but you aren't going to study it any longer. You're going to move on, too.

The average poster goes through the stages of:

1. Wow, there's a lot of help here and I'm learning a lot from people with more experience.
2. I want to test myself on others' problems and see what my peers think of my solutions.
3. I want pay it forward to others that need help, but it isn't going to really help me.
4. The forum has gone downhill because all these people are idiots asking if they should fold KK preflop.

The forum hasn't gone downhill. It is that your knowledge has gone up and problems that would have been difficult for you several years ago aren't any more.

My recommendation for anyone complaining that they aren't getting anything out of the forum is that it is time for you to leave the LLSNL way station and head out to the next stage of your poker journey with our blessing or accept that it is going to be the way it is without complaining.

Gil, would you like to handle this one?

Goristhatawasteofyourtimebecauseitissoobviouslyinc orrect?G

Actually I started with that opinion (like everyone does), and changed my stance in the other direction. (Under certain conditions obviously. But this isn’t the place to have the debate again).

He has just as many reasons/rights to post as everyone else does.

As Playbig mentions, there is a beginner forum if he doesn't feel comfortable with what I think most people considered standard play. Especially considering his reaction to his table conditions should be the exact opposite of what he thought the solution was.



There is a difference between suggesting it in a niche situation as an exploit, versus saying you will do it every single thread you happen to waddle in on with KK/AA.

That's even worse.

Yeah, and the point here isn't the badness/goodness of limp/reraising. The point is that we should all feel free to discuss the pros/cons of any play. And if a particular discussion doesn't interest you, that's fine and hopefully there is a neighbouring thread that might have a discussion you are interested in.

GcluelessmasterdebaternoobG

How much of that 29% raw equity fo you think you actually realize 5 ways out of position? I think realization is pretty tough in these spots.