NL200 (blinds 1-2)


I just arrived at the table. So I do not know my opponents but they are young white males. The previous round I raised strong and everyone has folded.

PREFLOP


UTG (full stack) limp

MP (full stack) limp too

Button ( short stack of $70) limp too

Small blind (half stack) fold

Hero is Big Blind (full stack) with KK: I raise to $10

UTG call

MP call

Button shove (so he raises all-in with his $70)

Hero: What should I do? the pot is $100 now and me and the other two players are full stack ($200)

A) Just call? to let at least one of the other players (full stack) in the hand?
B) to shove?
C) min-raise?


Thank you very much in advance!

I reshove here.

Because a common mistake for most opponents at llsnl is to limp call often pre, we should exploit that with our entire range by raising bigger preflop. Let's say you want to play tight and just play a couple hands per hour. What happens to your winrate when, instead of raising to $10 here, you go $16. You all take a flop, you cbet and they fold. If you have 2 callers, that extra $$$ pre becomes an extra $12/hr. Significant, imo.

Raise more pre with multiple limpers.

As played, iso-jam.

I make an exploitative flat. I never minraise. Against people who aren't dumb and know I'm not dumb I just jam my entire range I continue with here.

Still, fact of the matter is generally speaking, flatting will get us more action from the other stacks so flatting is often better even if it's super transparent.

Raise bigger over three limpers. I know you said they folded last time, but limp folds are pretty rare at 1/2 and you are OOP. Whatever the standard open here is (usually $6-12, depending on table) plus one BB per limper and one for being OOP. I prob go $18 here usually. $10 is inviting set-miners and playing a multi-way hand OOP with a bad SPR for an overpair.

AP, BTN has a small-medium PP almost always here. He reps nothing here, but is tempted by the dead money and figures that if you call he's flipping vs your AK (which Vs at this level love to put you on).

I flat. Any raise other than a shove is silly. A flat *might* tempt one of the limp-callers in at horrible odds with their dumb speculative hand. Shoving isn't bad, as it could be perceived as weaker than a flat, looking like an attempt to iso BTN, but without reads/image, I think flatting is more likely to get further action.

I'm iso shoving since 100$ is already in the middle. I'm more than happy to play for that HU than try to drag someone else in. If he shoved for 35-40bb, then I might flat looking for more value out of other villains, but IMHO there's already enough money out there to just shove and not be too greedy. If you flat and another player flats and they flop FD or oesd, they can profitably open jam the flop. The extra 70$ isn't worth the possible flops they could hit and profitably shove.

EDIT: not open shove but call otf.

Um, dude? He shoved for exactly 35bbs.

And if they are calling your flat with anything that can flop a FD or OESD, you are making redic profit pre, and still +EV for the post part on those rare occasions where they do flop the draw.

Get greedy, imo. The name of the game is not "take what you can get easily," but "maximize EV."

You're absolutely right. I was thinking 70bb for some reason.

I'm still learning so educate me on this. If utg/mp or both call our flat with a speculative range (which I know is good for us), how does playing this MW affect our equity.

EDIT: after stoving it, against 4 players with a wide range, we have 45% equity. So flating and bringing in another player or two is actually a good idea. What flops do we c/fold if any? Only the worst?

I think you could go either way here. With unknown opponents you dont really know what they would think about a flat call. Some might think you flat beacause you have AA and want to invite others in. Others will see a flat as a 'min' risk with AK/AQ or 77-JJ and maybe get in there with some other spec hand. A min raise is basically a shove here so you might as well shove with stacks this 'small'. Most would expect you jam AA-QQ here for isolation so flat calling might open the door to a bigger pot as long as you 'accept' what you are getting into.

If you flat then you are opening up the door for an Ace to hit the Flop and face another decision. This is up to you, not us, to decide how to proceed. You already indicated you dont know your opponents, but based off a blanket description and being in a capped game one would expect that anyone who flats here will bet/jam into any Flop they get a sniff of and then you may be sucked out on. That is the risk you take for building a bigger pot.

Flops to be worried about? Any Ace, paired board or 2/3 flush are boards that would bring others into play. If someone hits a set, then 'thats poker'.

I am surprised you are still a 45% favorite in a 5-way pot ... I think you would need to narrow some ranges even in a crazy cap game.

PF? Yes, raise a bit more since (one) it only takes $8 for the next player to call into $17 and then 'everyone' is priced in after that and (two) you are OOP for the rest of the hand and should make anyone IP pay a premium for that to narrow their range. With an $8 raise you are basically set mining with the 2nd best starting hand against what should be a fairly loose table. I like to 'bet' at least 150% of the current pot ($9 x 1.5 = $14 min) and from the BB you need to add the 'premium' ... so $16 to $20 here.

AP if you flat then the next player 'only' needs $60 into $177 to play which is a decent price for some. I probably would only flat if I planned on jamming all non-Ace Flops. GL

Just shove and take the money. Sometimes they still call after you shove.

None.

I'm shoving 100% of flops.

Against some people I might check to induce, but with the all-in player and dry sidepot most people will happily check down unless they have a monster.

raise more pre. like 15-20. as played, jam!

As played i would just push at this point,

i´d shove with 99+, AJ+, so KK is a shove for me, especially if i play in that room regularly. an exploitative flat is a good play if you aren´t a reg. sol reader explained it very well anyways.

$17 pre. The good ole' "$15 on top" will still get you a caller or two. FWIW the smallest I ever bet pre at 1/2 is $12, and my standard is $15. I would try to get to that. Once you do it a few times table adjusts, trust me. I had made it $17 from the sb last night and got called by 74o.

As played the button has done the iso'ing for you. What I mean is, if he had shoved like $22, yea you have to repop to keep the riff raff out. But $70 is plenty to get most of the $10 callers out, but hopefully someone sticks along.

Tank flat.

I raise to 12-15 pre. As played this is such an easy flat pre. Yes u will lose more often by not reshoving but u make so much more long term by flatting. Hell I WANT both villains to flat the $70 regardless of what they have

The only flop I'm check folding are ace high flops. If u flop a set u may be able to slowplay if there are no real draws but any other flop is a shove

I'm never folding KK pre except to Nitty McNitterson (the guy who plays like 2 hands per hour). I've seen as low as AQs 4bet shove pre, and I commonly see TT+ getting it in. Against that range we are 66% favorites. I'm fist pump-can't move my chips in fast enough-shoving. Sure sometimes we run into AA, but that's the game. You can't play KK scared. Flatting to see a flop with 3 or more others sucks because you're way too likely to see a scary flop, and not know where you stand. Just get the damn money in pre and let variance sort itself out.

Um, 1fish2fish? Nobody, including OP, ever mentioned folding as any sort of option here. And we make decisions to make the most money, not because they are the easiest and least likely to make us have a hard decision later.

True, it was in another thread where folding KK was discussed. I disagree on your assessment on easy decisions vs making the most money. In my experience, especially in LLSNL, the easier you make your decisions, the more money you make. The player pool simply isn't good enough to play on such a deep level.
The times you try to win the pot pre by sticking it in will likely have a higher EV than going to a multiway pot and seeing a flop.

Can you show any math to back up your assessment? 45% of 470 is more than 80% of 90. By a lot. Obviously, that's super simplified math, but it shows that losing more often is not necessarily a bad thing.

Thanks

____

Here is the result of the hand:

I decided to flat call the short stack with my KK.

UTG and MP have both called!

The flop was QsJs2h

I decided to shove

UTG called me with Th9h

MP folded

Button (short stack) was already in

The river was... an 8 so UTG made his straight and won the hand

___


Of course, my weak preflop raise was a mistake. I was afraid to get no action.

___


Results of this discussion (I don't count my own decision):

15 replies (different opinions)

8 were for shove

6 were for flat calling

1 was for either way

Democracy seems to favor (slightly) the decision to shove.

__

I usually just flat call in this situation and shove any flop except an Ace flop.

And usually (in the last two years) I lose...

I think I'll seriously consider shoving now!

Thanks to you all!

I think I was not awake this morning.

I made another calculation...


14 replies (different opinions)

9 were for shove (bfrank, Hand Shaker, Chancewilk, Pinche lupita, Bremen, wewa925, Gamblerio, sauhund, OneFish2Fish)

4 were for flat calling ( Sol Reader, Garick, Avaritia, Slimshady1999)

1 was for either way (answer20)


Next time i will shove!

Poker is not a democracy, its a mathocracy.

Your play was seriously +EV. UTG's call PF was horrible and exactly what you wanted him to do. Calling all those moneys with a speculative hand is a serious profit for you. Post flop, all the dead moneys made his call of your shove with an 8 outer (percieved, with your blockers actually less) just fine, but it's still going to make you more money most of the times.

Suckouts happen, and losing more often, but making more money when you win is a fine result. nh; wp.

Do you think MP made a +EV play calling? If no who is getting that value he is giving up?

If MP doesn't call preflop UTG would not even have a profitable flop call. lolz

Also did BTN show? He could easily have a set or AA and you lose anyway /lol results oriented thinking