Eff. 100BB. Both LJ and HJ (about 50 white guys) are new to me.

LJ opens 4x. HJ call and I call.

Flop (11BB after rake): J74r

LJ cbets 6BB, HJ folds and I call.

Turn: 7

Checked through.

River: A

I check. LJ bets 8BB. I?

Fold pre, and just fold to the river bet since we're literally in "no man's land"

Don't like the flatting with 100bbs. Since raise sizes live are higher and postflop spr is lower which will force u to stackoff easier with top pair and u will have a lot of bad top pair with calls like that.
100bbs in live games forces you to play tight

Next time include positions (it took me until the river to realize we're OOP).

Even though we're getting ok odds, QJo is a very meh hand plus we'll be OOP. Trivial fold for me preflop.

For this price and only 3ways (i.e. raiser can be cbetting air here more often than he would more multiway) I guess I'm ok with the flop call now that we're here.

I'm also checking the turn.

I'm also checking the river as it will be very difficult to get paid off by worse by betting. And now we just have to figure out if this guy is bluffing enough on the river. Most people just take their showdown value with smaller pears. And although there are some busted broadway hands like KQ/etc., is he the type to bluff enough? We're getting a good price, but it looks like we're being milked.

ETA: FWIW, the way I mostly size up my opponents in terms of relatively fishyness to the table is how often they end up in hands (especially shorthanded ones) calling a raise preflop OOP. It is something I personally almost never do.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Preflop fold multiway - calling is fine if you're going to be heads up

Flop call is fine, but if HJ had called in the middle that might also be a fold.

River is a simple check-fold now.

calling is the worst choice pre

fold >>>>> 3b >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> call

Thanks to all of you!

Glad to know that I need to tighten up when someone calls before me pre. My guess is that hands like QJo will be easier to be dominated and has RIO post when multiway, and thus shall be folded.

Among all those hands of non paired broadway cards, like ATo, KJo, JTo, QJo etc, which ones you'd call pre if someone called before you already. Basically I want to learn how to adjust my calling range here if one player calls before me.

Then how to adjust when two or three players call in front of my action?



If HJ calls, fold flop for the same reasons?

Fold pre.

The main thing is that your drop in equity/EV is generally more than you make up in improved odds.

Many of us, myself included, need to be better at playing unsuited Broadways - we get dealt them three times as often as suited ones after all - but an MP open followed by a button call and we're in the BB with an offsuit Broadway hand is an enormous bear pit situation we can easily fall into.

You can get involved with some of the better ones - AJ, KQ - but they will generally play at least as well as a squeeze, probably better.

And yes, on the flop it's a similar situation. Once you get a call in the middle the chances that you're behind increase dramatically and there's every chance you're up against one (better) made hand and one draw. Heads up is fine, the original raiser can continue to barrel off a lot.

None of them, I would 3bet or fold them all (the majority of the time, especially for new players).

I would only call with mutiway hands (has nothing to do with tightening up when there's a raiser and a caller) such as any PP, suited ace, suited b'ways, SC's, etc. when there's at least 4 or more people in the hand. (PP's can call a single raise if stacks are around 20x the bet).

Facing a LJ open (which is still relatively EP) and being OOP I would probably fold almost everything (even AJo/KQo, although I'm nittier than most). If the raise size was small enough and the opponents were horrendous enough postflop, and perhaps if in position, then maybe something more to think about. And if the open came in later position then more thought could be given to 3betting (against the right opponents / callers).

I basically only play most offsuit broadway in position and in limped pots.

GcluelessNLnoobG

when you say limped pots.. you mean you overlimp hands like QT, KT and even KQ?

Here's the "standard" BB strategy for offsuit broadway hands in this spot:

AKo: 3bet
AQo: 3bet
AJo: Call
ATo: Fold

KQo: 3bet or call 50/50
KJo: fold or call mainly fold
KTo: Fold

QJo: fold
QTo: fold

JTo: fold

If you have the right table, especially at low stakes, you can have a profitable button/CO overlimping range. I do think you need good postflop skills such that they aren't leaks, and I wouldn't play them all 100% of the time.

Maybe a good metric is if you can play limped pots profitably from the BB after the flop. You don't spew with dominated hands, and you can pick spots to bluff on the cheap to take down some pots, etc.

I also think players can get in a trap where they use limping as a crutch out of fear of being aggressive preflop and it hurts their growth.

You don't spew with dominated hands but limp with them to "flop something mediocre"?

Sure, I also like to overlimp from the co or btn but not QT or KT, especially when people like to limp hands like AT or KQ and you are in a guessing game postflop

I mean the only time I play the weaker variety of offsuit broadway hands (say KJo-/QJo-/JTo) is when in LP and no one has raised.

If there are 0 limpers to me in LP with these hands, I'll likely open all of them myself (although I don't think open limping these in LP is horrible).

If there is 1 limper to me in LP, I'll decide between raising versus overlimping depending on what I think of the blinds/limper.

As soon as there are 2 (and definitely 3+) limpers to me in LP, I'll mostly just overlimp.

The stronger AQo+ I'll typically raise in LP over limpers. AJo/ATo/KQo are really borderline hands for me; I used to lean towards raising them over limpers, but now I often just overlimp them (it really depends).

ETA: Basically, if we have ok hand reading / postflop skillz, these weaker offsuit broadways should be profitable overlimps in multiway pots in position. But we're looking to mostly flop very good hands or very good draws (or think we have good steal equity on later streets), so we should be giving up fairly easy facing any sort of real postflop aggression otherwise. But, if we don't feel comfortable with that (or are going to horribly mess up postflop a lot), then just dump them preflop, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Preflop is a bit loose.

As played I would call river. It's a scare card, the bet size is small, and this is one of the better hands you will arrive at with on the river. You're not going to have that many Kx. You are still beating a bunch of random bluffs. T9, 98, T8, 65, random lower pairs, ace highs, etc.

Villain probably doesn't have KJ, so most likely he bet the flop without a J, right? So is it a stretch that now he is betting river without a K?