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nl1k live, misplayed aces nl1k live, misplayed aces

10-21-2008 , 10:36 PM
Blinds are 5/10 and everyone has been straddling.

Effective stacks are about 1k or so, and the way the game has been going 3bets have been extremely rare, and when showndown, most have been JJ+ and the occassional AK, although most opted to flat with AK to a raise, and a few have just limped with it.

Villain is getting into a ton of pots. He's not overly aggressive, but he seems to be calling a ton of raises and calling cbets with any piece. I played with him a few years back and saw him as good, but I think he's just way too loose preflop.

Standard opening raises have ran from $45-$65, with me being the only one to open to $70 normally.

My image should be fairly tight and solid.

Action folds to villain in the CO, he's on the phone and semi-uninterested. He makes it $80, which is very large by this game's standards. I have AA in the SB and make it $230, which is a pretty sizable raise for this game. Villain calls, which I can't really get a read on what his range is since 3bets have been pretty infrequent.

Flop: KQ2r

I remember thinking in my head "the worst flop in this spot would be KQx," low and behold, I get it. I thought for a moment and tried to figure out what hands in a reasonable "call 25% of your chips preflop" range would call a bet that didn't beat me, so I elected to check (totally open for discussion on this one).

Villain fires $200, I call.

Turn: Qh, bringing 2 hearts

I check again, villain checks behind

River: 2

I check, villain goes AI for $505 (a huge bet for this game)

He has to think KK is in my range, obviously QQ is in his, and maybe AQ. I really only beat absolute air here and the turn check scares the crap out of me, but given that villain calls normal raises with a very wide range, I'm not sure what to make of this action.

Thoughts on all streets?

My biggest question is the flop... are we bet/calling? What hands are we expecting to get called by that we beat?
nl1k live, misplayed aces Quote
10-21-2008 , 10:53 PM
Make your 3bet like $320?
nl1k live, misplayed aces Quote
10-22-2008 , 01:19 AM
I don't get it... I still want a call afterall. $230 is a very sizable raise for this game and at the very least acceptable even online as he does not have the implied odds to fish for a set.
nl1k live, misplayed aces Quote
10-22-2008 , 01:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterLJ
I don't get it... I still want a call afterall. $230 is a very sizable raise for this game and at the very least acceptable even online as he does not have the implied odds to fish for a set.
Yeah but does his 3-bet calling range really change if you make it $320 instead of $230? It's not that you don't want him to draw for cheaper, it's that you want to put in as much money as you can while ahead, especially given that you're OOP and playing postflop can be a bitch. If you think he's folding AQ-type hands if you make it $320 instead of $230, then it seems fine to make it $230, but I highly doubt that's the case, given that it's live and people won't remember your 3-bet sizes and are much more likely to make mistakes. Given that it's live, I think it's fine to make your preflop 3-bet bigger, as long as it's not hugely obvious that you're bumping up your bet-size ($320 gets called, $500 might not...) because you have a big hand. I might bet flop for like $300 as played and then make a read deciding whether or not he shoves AK/AQ, KJ(?) there; c/c'ing $200 seems kinda lame because his bet is smaller than your original 3-bet and you have no idea where you stand. Dunno what else, I guess I fold river as played.
nl1k live, misplayed aces Quote
10-22-2008 , 04:27 AM
I like how you played the hand pf, on the flop and on the turn. I think the river is a fold. If the guy isn't really aggressive I can't imagine a live player following through with air enough on the river to make this call good. I could be entirely wrong though as I view the average live player as pretty passive in spots like this (opting to check down more readily than firing again).

I'm having a hard time putting him on a range of hands and honestly if I were to call I'd be shocked by whatever he has (other than QQ, which I can definitely see being played this way). Usually a confusing line causes me to call, but since it's live I would fold.
nl1k live, misplayed aces Quote
10-22-2008 , 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judgment
Yeah but does his 3-bet calling range really change if you make it $320 instead of $230? It's not that you don't want him to draw for cheaper, it's that you want to put in as much money as you can while ahead, especially given that you're OOP and playing postflop can be a bitch. If you think he's folding AQ-type hands if you make it $320 instead of $230, then it seems fine to make it $230, but I highly doubt that's the case, given that it's live and people won't remember your 3-bet sizes and are much more likely to make mistakes. Given that it's live, I think it's fine to make your preflop 3-bet bigger, as long as it's not hugely obvious that you're bumping up your bet-size ($320 gets called, $500 might not...) because you have a big hand. I might bet flop for like $300 as played and then make a read deciding whether or not he shoves AK/AQ, KJ(?) there; c/c'ing $200 seems kinda lame because his bet is smaller than your original 3-bet and you have no idea where you stand. Dunno what else, I guess I fold river as played.
As I said in OP, his 3bet calling range is not at all defined, nor is anyone's at the table and I had been playing for 6-7 hours at this point. 3betting happened maybe 6 times in that timespan, so no one's range is defined at all other than it's extremely tight for the original 3bettor (most of the original raisors have been calling, so it might err to the side of looser).

I think maybe $250 or so would have been better given the above read, but I think anything over $300 is going to push out a lot of hands that I want to call.

On the flop is it just wrong to think AK/AQ makes up enough of his range to bet for value? It was a really confusing spot.
nl1k live, misplayed aces Quote
10-22-2008 , 11:56 AM
In this situation, I think that you are up against QQ, possibly AQ. But I wouldve bet the turn again with AQ certainly, and probably QQ as well. I think this is a call on the river, but should have been a crai or lead out for 250-300 on the flop.
nl1k live, misplayed aces Quote
10-22-2008 , 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterLJ
Blinds are 5/10 and everyone has been straddling.

Effective stacks are about 1k or so, and the way the game has been going 3bets have been extremely rare, and when showndown, most have been JJ+ and the occassional AK, although most opted to flat with AK to a raise, and a few have just limped with it.

Villain is getting into a ton of pots. He's not overly aggressive, but he seems to be calling a ton of raises and calling cbets with any piece. I played with him a few years back and saw him as good, but I think he's just way too loose preflop.

Standard opening raises have ran from $45-$65, with me being the only one to open to $70 normally.

My image should be fairly tight and solid.

Action folds to villain in the CO, he's on the phone and semi-uninterested. He makes it $80, which is very large by this game's standards. I have AA in the SB and make it $230, which is a pretty sizable raise for this game. Villain calls, which I can't really get a read on what his range is since 3bets have been pretty infrequent.

Flop: KQ2r

I remember thinking in my head "the worst flop in this spot would be KQx," low and behold, I get it. I thought for a moment and tried to figure out what hands in a reasonable "call 25% of your chips preflop" range would call a bet that didn't beat me, so I elected to check (totally open for discussion on this one).

Villain fires $200, I call.

Turn: Qh, bringing 2 hearts

I check again, villain checks behind

River: 2

I check, villain goes AI for $505 (a huge bet for this game)

He has to think KK is in my range, obviously QQ is in his, and maybe AQ. I really only beat absolute air here and the turn check scares the crap out of me, but given that villain calls normal raises with a very wide range, I'm not sure what to make of this action.

Thoughts on all streets?

My biggest question is the flop... are we bet/calling? What hands are we expecting to get called by that we beat?

I think you made a big deal out of the flop. Its not your job to sniff out a set here. I say Ak floats preflop and will stack it off more than KK or QQ show up on the flop, even though you say hes a "good player". I do know that you say hes a "good player" buts hes a live player so im not sure what your standards are for good live player.

I get the feeling this is a level post, I HAVE A VERY HARD TIME BELIEVING YOU PLAYED THE HAND OUT THIS WAY.
nl1k live, misplayed aces Quote
10-22-2008 , 09:32 PM
No level, this is how I played it. I think it's a massive mistake to count on villain having AK/AQ here given that we have AA. Certainly open for discussion on that though as that's really at the core of this entire hand.
nl1k live, misplayed aces Quote
10-23-2008 , 02:13 AM
we don't have to count on him having it... we just have to think it makes up some part of his range. the pot is already massive and we do have a little bit of equity at least even if we're behind. my experience with live players is that they always call threebets with AK (even if they are coldcalling two raises).

on this board vs a range of QQ+,AK we have 50.1% equity.

fwiw though I screwed up a hand very similar to this in my last live session where I raised AA utg, utg+1 repopped, I fourbet and he flatcalled and a king flopped and I thought I was screwed and neglected to finish stacking his AK. Then I felt dumb. =(
nl1k live, misplayed aces Quote

      
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