Just sat down at the table. No real history on villain. Players in the casino generally loose preflop and many rather passive postflop.

Flop Both players calling in a threeway pot indicates they have a decent made hand or FD

Turn Villains lead is hard to interpret: Either sort of "block bet" with a mediocre hand or draw or he tries to induce a raise. I feel like raising the turn is overplaying the hand in a threeway situation.

River With two players and flushes consistent with flop and turn play I'm not happy about this river. Not blocking any diamond. Is my hand still strong enough to bet after both players checked the river?

Happy to hear opinions about the other streets, too.

Flop is a little big, but maybe good vs. passive players.

I would check river, there's some chance you were beat before the river and the river was bad.

Doubt I can fold turn ... can be KQ that thinks he's putting money in good vs. your FD and only then BB overcalls. Can obviously be 97 or K9 though, but without better reads I don't like folding AA.

Bigger preflop, flop sizing is good. Jam turn over his donk bet.

X back river as played.

turn donkbet size seems awfully small for a hand that has you beat. would he really donkbet 2 pair with this sizing? id just shove over it and make your opponents pay to draw.

I concur with bigger preflop and jam turn. Versus two limps i would go to 15 pre.

As played check back river.

id probably put it in

you may see 2 pair but i agree 41 seems too small a turn bet for two pair so i think you are good.

id guess kj

Thanks guys for the helpful input! In the past, I might have played one-pair hands too cautiosly in these kind of three-way situations. I now see that villains range on the turn consists more of TPMK hands like KJ, KT and FDs than two-pair or better which they'd raise otf often. So if I get it in I'd expect calls from KT or better and combo-draws like J9dd or T8dd, and I should be in good shape against this range. The stack-pot-ratio seems also important here.

Would you also stick it in with, say KQ, on the turn or with FD as semi-bluff? And would you get it in with these hands already on the flop if the action goes Hero bet, BB call, Villain raise?

Yes, thats exactly the donking range from villain on turn. If action went the same, yes i would also jam KQ on turn. I would not do it with a FD on turn because if we have FD villain is going to be very Kx heavy and they are not going to fold top pair.

On the flop vs bet, call, raise its a little different. Typical passive low stakes players are not check raising as a bluff, especially multi way so I just fold flop to check raise unless its a very small one like min raise. But even then im going to be very cautious moving forward.

Ugh. What an annoying spot on turn and river.

Turn donk from MP multi-way is really weird. Might occasionally be a stronger hand hoping to induce us to spaz raise, or an otherwise strong hand that doesn't want the turn to check through, but will often be V just trying to set his own price to draw, rather than checking and risking us betting huge.

If we were deeper, I'd feel better about raising turn. Problem is stacks are so shallow and the stakes so low that a lot of the 1/2 player pool will YOLO call if we jam, or YOLO jam themselves if we raise less than all in. Jamming to make them pay to draw doesn't deny any equity if they're not folding, and only loses more money when they get there, or when we're already beat. I'd jam sets here, and 2P with a 7, but jamming AA just feels too spewy.

I don't hate a turn raise/jam, but I don't hate calling to see a river. As played, just check back when the flush comes in.

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How is that not a great result if we jam and he yolo calls with a flush draw? Thats what we want. We get all of his money everytime he whiffs he gets ours the small percentage he hits. Thats a great result.

You're assuming we're always ahead and they're always on a draw.

Sometimes we're already beat. So we lose when we're beat and don't improve, and we lose when our opponent sucks out.

Alternatively, we can just call, and see the river in position. V might bluff on a brick, or check to us on any card. We're last to act, so we can still make sure a bet goes in, but we won't be risking our stack on the turn.

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Do you all try to understand V's thought process in spots like this? Or are you just playing vs observed pop tendencies? I tend to struggle when I can't see it from V's perspective

I cannot come up with a reason for donking the turn that doesn't also lead him to either donk flop, or continue on river

its a level 1 thinker deciding that $41 is the most he wants to pay to draw, and the lowest that he thinks hero won't raise.

funny thing is that most people get spooked out by donkbets, so even if he donk bet like $5 on the turn a lot of people wont raise the bet with one pair.

Yes I try to understand V's thought process, whatever the spot is. I'm using observed reads on specific V's, or otherwise defaulting to population reads.

My earlier post was my thinking about what V might be thinking - maybe he's trying to set his own price to draw, maybe he's super strong and trying to induce us to spaz-raise, or maybe he just has a reasonably strong hand that doesn't want the turn to check through.

Versus the population, I tend to weight this towards draws or weaker value that does NOT want a raise, because I think strong hands would donk larger, or go for a check-raise, not get fancy with a small bet to induce a raise.

Putting myself into V's head, and listening to his thoughts: "I have top pair (or a flush draw), and this dude bet almost 2/3 pot on the flop. Let me bet 40% pot, so he doesn't bomb this turn for 2/3 pot, or an over-bet."

It's a weird line, IMO, because a lot of the population is at least smart enough to worry we'll come over the top with a raise, forcing them to fold away their equity in a spot where they really just want to see the river as cheaply as possible. It's especially weird when there are no credible bluffs here - no straight or flush draws on the flop came in on the turn. He shouldn't have made any sets or 2P on the turn.

When V does something weird on one street, it surprises me less when they do something else that's weird on a later street. After we call turn, and the draw comes in on the river, I'm expecting KX to just check back, but expecting him to bet with his flushes.

If he checks to us, I might ordinarily bet to get value from KX, but it makes less sense here. Like, if he was betting KX on the turn because he was afraid we were drawing, he won't call. If he was drawing, he got there, so why bet?

Does it make sense for him to check here? No, not really, because a good player would know we're very likely to check back here, with anything that isn't the nut flush.

But re-winding the tape - he donk led turn with the 2nd nut flush draw. Maybe he's scared to bet, and is just planning to check-call any river bet, because "I'm never folding the 2nd nuts", but also "he could have the nut flush."

So, no, it doesn't make sense to donk turn with the 2nd nut flush draw and check river when he makes his hand, but in the twisted maze of a bad rec-fish's mind, yeah, it sort of does. I guess we could be generous and say he was trapping, but it's a stupid trap only a blind man would walk into.

Sometimes sure, but theres not that much value. And even when he does have K9 or 99 or 44 how often is he going to donk turn small with it? The pattern is small donk is draw, large donk is value. So you could give him some value hands, but he could also have weak Kx that calls off a jam too. Theres way more combos we are ahead of than behind. I dont see how jamming isnt the best line vs a loose passive that donks small on turn.

It's 1/2, with $200 effective. They're playing Bingo with Monopoly money at these stakes, when they're 100bb deep, which is really more like 60bb, when guys are opening to 5x ($10).

When V limps in for $2, hero raises to $10, and the BB calls, the pot is $25 when action gets back to him. He's getting over 3:1 on a call, with massive implied odds. V's range could literally be ATC.

He didn't donk flop. He donked turn, on an off-suit 7. So, he could also have K7s or 97s here, which would make at least as much as, if not more sense than K9, 99, or 44. He limp-called from the CO, so his range can also include K4s, 94s, and 74s. Basically, I'm giving him every 2P combo here.

We can't assume V is good, and knows what he's doing. He may not know what's in the pot when he bets "small" on the turn. Or maybe he does, and he's just trying to set up a 1/2-2/3 pot jam on the river.

Your point was that we want to jam turn and have him call with his flush draws, because he'll only get there on the river about 20% of the time. But we can't know for sure that he's ONLY donking like this with flush draws.

If he wants to donk with his draws, why not donk the flop? Why donk turn? His turn donk is more consistent with a value hand that improved on the turn, and is now trying to protect against a draw - hands like K7s, 97s, and 74s. Hell, he could have gotten here with 77, and he's praying we jam.

My point is that if we jam turn, not only will his draws get there about 20% of the time, we're also already beat a good portion of the time, because his preflop limp-calling range could be ATC, allowing his turn donking range to have a $hlt-ton more 2P than we might otherwise expect.

If we jam turn, he's folding all his air-ball bluffs, and a lot of his weak value. He's calling with every hand that already beats ours, and YOLO calling with a lot of hands that have a bunch of equity to improve.

If we flat call turn, he gets to the river with all the hands we beat, and he might be fool enough to continue barreling with a lot of them. If he checks to us on the river, and we think our hand is good, we can still bet.

But, if you want to jam over every turn donk at 1/2, because there was a flush draw on the flop, be my guest. Let us know how often it works out.

PS to my reply above, something I neglected to point out - the reveal here showed V had Q3s. If he's got Q3s in his limp-calling range pre, he's probably got every 2P combo on the flop and turn.

I'm not opposed to your strat of jamming turn facing this donk, if our hand was stronger, or if we blocked the NFD, or if we were deeper and it was higher stakes, where there's more fold equity.

But at 1/2 or 1/3, starting out 100bb deep, I don't think we can always assume V is drawing to the FDFD when he limp-called getting >3:1 pot odds pre, and then donks turn for 35%-40% pot on a brick. This line could easily be a rec-fish just betting 2P for value and protection against the draw.