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Need advice to take my Game to the next level Need advice to take my Game to the next level

10-19-2010 , 09:19 AM
Hello to you all.

Playing poker for 3 years, the first 2 of which being solely regular (2-4 times a week) home games.

These involved a ring of 7-9 players, most of them being the same every time,
playing €0,5-1, and I was a constant winner.

This last year I started playing in card rooms in 9 handed rings €1-1 being initially successful but then
came a horrid bad run which has seriously affected my confidence and playing style.

The bulk of the players there are gamblers, maniacs and fishes, and as such I am considered and respected as one of the two or three best players there, but neither am I a feared opponent nor am I winning that much.

While I generally win, I find my self in fear of loosing money to avoid of making big bluffs or big calls when I know that it is the correct thing to do, I cut deals when all in and ahead up 80+% in fear of the bad beat.
It is quite difficult for me to change gears and there are periods of game time that I shift from my standard solid TAG game to a badly executed LAGish and some times to an awful Loose Passive game which are enough to cut down my hard worked winnings or even take me to the losing side.

Apart from that I can't take a suck out softly and when it comes I often explode -Helmuth style- accusing the opponent for calling my QQ preflop off position with K3 off when I have 20+ hands to open.

Well to finalize I consider my self a mediocre regular who spends a lot of time reading and studying on poker wanting to go to the next level. I believe that I "have it in me" but there are things that keep me behind and I want help to recognize and eliminate them or accept that I cannot proceed and set poker aside.
Need advice to take my Game to the next level Quote
10-19-2010 , 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ktonos

(1)The bulk of the players there are gamblers, maniacs and fishes... neither am I a feared opponent nor am I winning that much.

(2)While I generally win, I find my self in fear of loosing money to avoid of making big bluffs or big calls when I know that it is the correct thing to do, I cut deals when all in and ahead up 80+% in fear of the bad beat.
It is quite difficult for me to change gears and there are periods of game time that I shift from my standard solid TAG game to a badly executed LAGish and some times to an awful Loose Passive game which are enough to cut down my hard worked winnings or even take me to the losing side.

(3)Apart from that I can't take a suck out softly and when it comes I often explode -Helmuth style- accusing the opponent for calling my QQ preflop off position with K3 off when I have 20+ hands to open.
1) If the game you play in is truly like that its perfect. You want a table full of everything you explained. You have to realize you are playing one of the lowest levels of live poker, and just like a 5NL game online, not too many people are there to take it serious but rather are there for entertainment purposes. It's probably not a lot of money to the people that play and thus they throw it around as such.

2) You shouldn't be trying to make big bluffs or big calls in that game. It's truly bingo poker, wait for the nuts and get paid. Quit cutting deals. This is the reason you are not feared. Let variance take its course. If you can't afford to play then find a smaller home game. I used to do the same thing because my roll was smaller, and I would find myself in spots where the people I would cut deals with never cut me a deal. I would get preated heated because of that and took it personal.... which led to...

3) Tilt. Quit tapping on the glass. If someone wants to call your all in (which may seem like a lot of money to you) with K3o then you should be thanking them, not berating them. I don't think anyone can teach you about your tilt control it needs to be fixed by yourself. It takes time and a real understaning of variance. If you do not understand variance and cannot see it for what it is then you will always tilt.

I think the biggest leak you have right now is the concept of variance. You need to read all you can about variance and grasp it. Embrace the variance for what it is and it should solve a lot of your problems (fear, tilt, bankroll).
Need advice to take my Game to the next level Quote
10-19-2010 , 10:41 AM
How much do you buy in for and how many buyins in your BR? I used to feel a lot like this when playing a Ł1-Ł1 game with Ł100 buyin off a Ł1k roll but since then have got up to over Ł5k and take beats/suckouts really easy because its not a high % of my money.... Like mentioned above there is a lot of variance in the game which you need to get used to, a new place where I play I recently broke even over 150 hours, then won over 20 buyins over the next 40 or so hours. Just keep playing and getting your money in good, it will even out over time.
Need advice to take my Game to the next level Quote
10-19-2010 , 12:30 PM
Your problems are obviously psychological (fear & tilt). Work on this part of your game. Poker rewards players with no fear and who don't tilt. Preparation in this respect is actually very helpful. Imagine you have a set and some donk calls a big bet with a gutshot and hits. So what?!? This is obviously a bad play, but it will pay off some small percentage of the time. Your attitude when this happens should be a) what do I have to say to this player to reinforce his belief that this was a reasonable play and b) over the long run this player can only win money if I change my play out of fear and losing to a sick draw just doesn't scare me. Refuse to give attention to your bad beats.
Need advice to take my Game to the next level Quote
10-19-2010 , 03:02 PM
It does seem from what you posted so far that you have some psychological hang ups that are preventing you from crushing your game. If your into reading books, I would recommend The Poker Mindset by Ian Taylor & Matthew Hilger. It will help you see variance and tilt for what they are.
Need advice to take my Game to the next level Quote
10-19-2010 , 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ktonos

Apart from that I can't take a suck out softly and when it comes I often explode -Helmuth style- accusing the opponent for calling my QQ preflop off position with K3 off when I have 20+ hands to open.
This could mean you're playing bad here. If you constantly stack off with QQ vs A or K high boards, I'll probably open up my range in position against your PF ranges and flat a lot of it since you'll be offering high implied odds.

Not saying you are playing bad, but i'd evaluate these spots more and see if you have a leak with respect to the above.

i played in a home game with a friend who thought the best hand preflop should always win the hand and would stack off constantly because he didnt understand relative hand strength very well and would just assume that when he raised PF to 'x' everyone would tighten up their calling range.
Need advice to take my Game to the next level Quote
10-20-2010 , 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokingrobot
This could mean you're playing bad here. If you constantly stack off with QQ vs A or K high boards, I'll probably open up my range in position against your PF ranges and flat a lot of it since you'll be offering high implied odds.

Not saying you are playing bad, but i'd evaluate these spots more and see if you have a leak with respect to the above.

i played in a home game with a friend who thought the best hand preflop should always win the hand and would stack off constantly because he didnt understand relative hand strength very well and would just assume that when he raised PF to 'x' everyone would tighten up their calling range.
I was at the moment the biggest stack at the table (over 250 chips and opponent on less than 40). He is very straightforward and the flop was A33.
He checked and I bet 14 in the 18 pot not expecting to beat me as he donk bets with top pair. He shoved for 16-17 more and I had him 6/10 times only on the club draw and the rest on the ace. I had to call. Never do I stack off with OPs unless I have good reads or I am on tilt. I just exploded for the PF fish call and further for my unluckiness. I know I must not.

Many thanks for your replies guys. Helps a lot.

Apart from the obvious psychological part which I must work on, I have problems changing gears when the table seems to go on the tight and passive side for some rounds and I want to start attacking, mostly for mixing up my image but for profit too.
Need advice to take my Game to the next level Quote
10-20-2010 , 08:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ktonos
I am considered and respected as one of the two or three best players there, but neither am I a feared opponent nor am I winning that much.

While I generally win, I find my self in fear of loosing money to avoid of making big bluffs or big calls when I know that it is the correct thing to do, I cut deals when all in and ahead up 80+% in fear of the bad beat.
It is quite difficult for me to change gears and there are periods of game time that I shift from my standard solid TAG game to a badly executed LAGish and some times to an awful Loose Passive game which are enough to cut down my hard worked winnings or even take me to the losing side.

Apart from that I can't take a suck out softly and when it comes I often explode -Helmuth style- accusing the opponent for calling my QQ preflop off position with K3 off when I have 20+ hands to open.
Stop doing all these things.

1. You don't want to be feared at the table. In fact, you want to be considered at best average, if not a donk at the table. Looking at the on-line world for a second, a big complaint of high stakes players is that they can't get any action. That's why they multi-account, so people don't know who they are and don't fear them.

2. You're trying to book wins. As much as we don't want to admit it, table selection plays a far bigger role in our wins than our skill. What you are doing is when the conditions are good, you're quitting the game. Even if you are sitting there, you've stopped really playing. My guess is that if you have a losing session, you're there until the places closes, even though the conditions are bad for you.

3. Making deals in all in situations is awful. First, you're giving up a lot of equity. Let's say you're all in with a 200 pot as a 80% favorite. You agree to just take 130. That decision cost you 30. In a 1/1 game, that's 2-3 hours of average profit you gave away. The second is not as obvious. You are also eliminating from your game the FE when you want it. People are going to call you down lighter, knowing that they'll get a discount if behind, but don't have to offer you anything if ahead. Yeah, the TV pros do it, but frankly they are doing it because they are under bankrolled for the game (yes, even they have leaks).

4. You need to stop thinking about shifting gears between TAG and LAG as something you do randomly. You play a certain style because it is optimal for the table conditions at the moment. If the table becomes passive and loose, I'll play TAG. If the table is tight, I'll open up. If there is a maniac dominating the table, I'll loosen up and play passive.

5. Finally, exploding at bad beats is -EV. Poker players are like sharks. If they think you're running bad, they'll come after you, calling your bets and raises and trying to push you out.
Need advice to take my Game to the next level Quote
10-21-2010 , 12:59 AM
Stop doing all these things.

1. You don't want to be feared at the table. In fact, you want to be considered at best average, if not a donk at the table. Looking at the on-line world for a second, a big complaint of high stakes players is that they can't get any action. That's why they multi-account, so people don't know who they are and don't fear them.


noted

2. You're trying to book wins. As much as we don't want to admit it, table selection plays a far bigger role in our wins than our skill. What you are doing is when the conditions are good, you're quitting the game. Even if you are sitting there, you've stopped really playing. My guess is that if you have a losing session, you're there until the places closes, even though the conditions are bad for you.

Nope, I have a cap of max loss. Thats either 2 buy in of 70BB or 1 of 150BB.
If I loose them I leave.

3. Making deals in all in situations is awful. First, you're giving up a lot of equity. Let's say you're all in with a 200 pot as a 80% favorite. You agree to just take 130. That decision cost you 30. In a 1/1 game, that's 2-3 hours of average profit you gave away. The second is not as obvious. You are also eliminating from your game the FE when you want it. People are going to call you down lighter, knowing that they'll get a discount if behind, but don't have to offer you anything if ahead. Yeah, the TV pros do it, but frankly they are doing it because they are under bankrolled for the game (yes, even they have leaks).

Yes yes I know. Its the fear of the bad beat. I must deal with it. Top priority.

4. You need to stop thinking about shifting gears between TAG and LAG as something you do randomly. You play a certain style because it is optimal for the table conditions at the moment. If the table becomes passive and loose, I'll play TAG. If the table is tight, I'll open up. If there is a maniac dominating the table, I'll loosen up and play passive.

As I said I don't do it randomly, I try to adopt to the table as it shifts between tendencies. I just have leaks playing LAG. its like I have a label on me which writes "LAG MODE" and people who would previously respect my raises no call me lighter. Maybe it has to do something with my body language.

5. Finally, exploding at bad beats is -EV. Poker players are like sharks. If they think you're running bad, they'll come after you, calling your bets and raises and trying to push you out.

Noted and thanks for the advices mate
Need advice to take my Game to the next level Quote
10-21-2010 , 02:23 AM
I create a thread in the Poker THeory Section that I think would be perfect for you and addresses many of your needs.

Read through it all, with particular attention to post #1 and post #12

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...h-game-898248/
Need advice to take my Game to the next level Quote

      
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