And this should be the extent of peoples seat changing.

I feel like as a reg I have to seat change because all the other ****ty regs are but man I don't want to.

It's not that I want position on u, I don't want u to have position on me

+1 to not making it obvious. The fish r bad at poker, not at life. Well some.

In Vegas though where every casino every table is equipped with up to 3 seat change buttons and all the regs snap-ask for seat change button soon as they arrive at the table, it is hard not to do what they do.

What annoys me even more is when regs mass sit-out the moment a bad player takes a meal break or leaves the game... that is THE WORST.

Maybe if you guys took off your headphones and stopped surfing your iPads all the time and actually took the time to have meaningful conversations with the fish it wouldn't be such a problem. The fish don't care if I move to their immediate left, they want to talk to me anyways. If I stack them a few times it's all good and if I want to hit and run then I'll hit and run and it's no big deal, 'cause they know I need the money more than they do anyways. Hell, if I decide to bang one of their wives its all water under the bridge because it's always "bros before hoes" that's how we do it.

This is bad for sure. I can't say I've seen it happen that much at a more or less full table at live poker (on line it absolutely was prevalent back when I played). But I do see it happen locally when the biggest spot leaves and it's now down to 3-4 handed. The tighter players don't want to play short. And I can't say its the worst for them personally, since they know they are dogs short handed, but there is no way we'll sustain the game long term if it breaks every time it gets short - IME if you keep the game going more will join in more times than not.

You don't ever want to "snap" seat change/table change/add your name to list when you think a game gets really good/etc imo. It looks sooooooo grindy when people do that stuff and it tilts the hell out of the action players.

Having said that, you can do all those things for sure and not really affect the vibe negatively as long as you are tactful/not transparent.

Imo.

Haha, thanks, but I have no interest in becoming a mod. I do think my 2k thread has pretty much evolved into a "how to be a real pro and make/keep games good" thread though, and that's really the reason I keep it going (despite it being time consuming and occasionally detrimental to me as a player/person).

I've played all the different stakes lately (traveling, goofing off, etc) and can tell you I think 5-10 is the very worst level wrt dirty, annoying grinders. At 10-20, they are much better in general (though they sometimes try too hard to be smooth which can be tilting), and at anything higher than that the only ones berating/criticizing/grating in any way are almost always pretty huge underdogs in the lineup ("pros" or not). I suppose this direct correlation just has to do with increased perspective and understanding of both edge and variance the higher you go...

I'm seriously very happy you hit your gutshot! I always root for/congratulate people who gambooool- even if it's against me.

GL

edit: there are def some 5-10 grinders who really "get it" on all levels imo, they are just the minority (and they usually don't live in Vegas ).

Honestly your vibe/disposition is so far above average that you could get away with a ton of stuff that most couldn't.

---

And yeah, if someone "crazy action" is coming to your table and the seat on your left is open, obv lock it up. But if we are starting a game or whatever and I'm the first to sit down in the 3 seat, if you are second to sit down and you take the 4, that's a problem. And then if you want to be a brick wall on top of that (buyin short, never fold, 3bet a ton more than you usually do, cockblock me from playing how I like to play, etc), well that's a whole other level of dirty and def against the unwritten rules imo (if we are both regs/we are friendly/if I have ever helped you one way or another). In that case, expect some venom + full attention moving forward.

(^^^ isn't directed at you personally at all obv)

i'm not sure if i've done those things to u but, if i have, my bad. the buying in short/never folding/3betting is kinda standard for me tho. i do know i spazzed vs u a ton and really badly one particular session. i learned my lesson and now just try to practice avoidance nowadays.

Lol I'm so tired of ppl being like zomg take of your headphones and have as conversation w the fish
Retread your post and ask yourself why ppl would rather listen to the same old playlists or pandora or angry birds rather than talk to you
Some days i feel like talking to ppl at the table other days no. But it's not my obligation to engage ppl at the table, If you want to talk to random ppl then go find a book club or a a bar or smth.
Also ppl act like it's gonna scare the fish off I mean idk the same degen fish show up and Lose 8/10 days if u talk to them or not. But it's California and poker is rly your only option and in my area there's only a couple viable places to play anyway fwiw

Just to take other side of arguement. Why is it bad form though? Like isn't it the reason he sits down is to try and do what he can to win $ from u?
And vise versa? so why is it bad form for him to try and do this to maximize his expectation or help him win $ from u
Sure you do things w your game that get in the way of the nits who wanna see a bunch of cheap flops and bang the nuts and make some $ sure your 41/37 style gets in the way of that

^

it's just the old adage " you can can shear a sheep many times, but you can only skin him once"

what might be the most EV choice in the moment isnt necessarily the most EV decision for the session, the week, month, year, etc

/cliche

was NOT talking about you at all

you have never done anything I thought was dirty

obvvvvvvvvvvv play your game and play to win

lol avoidance

The 2k thread is outstanding... must read for anyone that plays for any level of profit. Thanks

I try to be a 2/5 version of your style - action if needed, booze, straddle... etc - if more players followed your attitude (lag or tag, can still be friendly to clients) game would grow and the action players stay in the game

the gut shot.. was not pretty I'll admit - but it was more to me, illustrative of when the players start the critic/game killing vibe - its amazing to me how shallow the thot process is - to level of not knowing the action/board -its doubly frustrating - poor client skills and poor poker thot process

Keep the action up - thanks again

It's not bad form to change seats before someone arrives at your table. It's also not bad form to move in-game from a LAG's right to a neutralish seat. And if you are getting crushed by a LAG (from sitting on his right), it's not even bad form really to get position on him when you've had your fill in a session...

It is bad form to cause a fuss/hold up the game/act like a spaz in the pursuit of a seat change (it's a real vibe/action killer). It is also bad form to change seats to someone's left multiple times in a session. It's also bad form to magically end up on someone's left every time you play together.

And then it's really bad form IMHO to seek help from someone who's been playing way longer/higher/more successfully than you (whether it be in a thread, a text message, a pm, borrowing money, etc) and then try to take advantage of what you've learned about his game/philosophy (via his generosity/help) by taking a shot in his game whenever there is a seat open on his left/he is clearly not playing his A game...

All of ^^^ is legal of course. It's just insanely short sighted and gross and -ev (personal wars within a ring game are costly to both players, but they could end up really hurting whoever is less experienced/tough/rolled/skilled/willing to fight to the end/etc). And in addition to just being a nice thing to have in your life as much as possible, harmony is obv also insanely important in live cash games (people play loose and bad and soft).

There are a bunch of unwritten rules/a code/basic common sense of what is "right" at the table, and that **** needs to be respected amongst regs always imo- regardless of their relationship/how they feel about each other as people.


It's well within the rules of baseball to steal 2nd base when your team is up 10 runs in the 8th inning...

The thing about the gut shot is it might have actually been the right play/you might have had the right equity against the range(s) you were playing against and NO ONE at the table will understand/acknowledge that. That's the beauty of live poker. Even the good players are terrible .

To be honest I could care less if you converse with the fish but don't get your panties in a bunch because I always have the God seat on the biggest fish even though he knows that I'm sexing his wife.

Most people with IRL social skills who are not Asberger's-having poker dorks/OCD about every technical edge should be able to have a sense of what is obvious and what is not.

When you go to car dealership, you know that the sales guy has the incentive to maximize his profit at the expense of you getting the best price. That's fine, and some amount of normal banter and negotiation is part of the deal. Normal car dealership banter = occasional seat changes, realizing that the regs are sort of lying when they answer strat questions, maybe knowing the regs are making subtle eye rolls at fishy play, maybe the regs talking about you when you go to the bathroom, and most importantly tolerating losing money over the long term.

But at the car dealer, something beyond normal sales banter -- bait and switch on the warranty, lying about not selling this car below $X when you sold it for X-100 to your brother-in-law yesterday, etc. -- offends most non-Asberger's people's sense of fairness. So not only will you not buy that car from that guy, but you will think he's an asshoole and will tell everyone you know the guy is an *******.

Serial godseating the fish is like that. Most poker fish, especially at 5-10+ where they run better in life than you, do not like getting treated like ******s to their face.

There's a nit who plays in my game who changes to my left about 98% of the time when he gets a chance. He's annoying, scummy, and shoots little angles so sometimes I **** with him and sit to his left just to see him panic a bit. Little does he know, I actually love it when he's to my left.

DGAFs analogy of a rookie stealing 2nd when up 10 late is brilliant. I was a winner in 2/5 and 5/10 but haven't played serious for years. When I sit now I am a fish. But I play to gamble and drink. These angles are incredibly obvious, and most fish at this level are at least smart enough to see this. Personally, if this is going on I usually just do whatever I can to irritate. Including leaving. But in general it just serves to remove my money from the player pool much sooner than planned.

That being said, I frequently swag change for comfort (fat people), and occasionally for someone torturing me. But again, I'm the fish. Pros should be professional.

I've explained it to scummy nitty regs more times than I can count, that played 4handed for an hour or two at 4am on a Fri or Sat night isn't about stacking regs you have no edge of.. it's so if a rich whale decides to walk by he'll either sit in and play, or chalk it up in his mind that he doesn't need to play now but there will be games at this time of the night on a weekend in the future if he chooses to play.

Quite frankly I'm very happy to be breaking even or even down a little if just one whale can be affected by seeing a table still going full of action. But sadly while some regs in Vegas and I assume LA get it, worldwide so many regs just always think "oh you're not a fish I don't wanna play you shorthanded so I leave.." I mean, tbh at that time of the night if it's short we could even just sit there with stacks and wait instead of racking up.. hands don't even need to be dealt.

great analogy

A nit to the left = double button, mostly.

I usually change seats to see the cards better but people are free to change seats as they please for any reason. Needling them for doing something that's their right is not likely to change their behavior. Is "strategic" seat changing "good for the game"? Maybe not. Who knows. Either way you can't tell other people what to do. I mean you can but they don't have to and generally won't listen to you anyway. So overall the topic is probably moot.

I hate to say this, but this is really an awful post. Like real contrarian grinder spew. Or is it a level?