Think I may have misplayed this on at least a couple of streets. Preflop I was thinking was maybe break even or slight plus EV, overlimping was my only other option, never folding in this game.

1/2 game on Friday night.

V1-V3 all bad, stacks range from $150-$1000
V4 $600. very aggressive 30yr old. Seems like a reg, plays some 2/5. 3bs, raises small bets, Has been raising me and betting on any sign of weakness for an hour. We have went back and forth winning some small to medium pots off each other. Very loose pre. Have seen him show down suited one and two gappers, bluff off 150 probably several times, got picked off once. I had a tell on him that made me some money later, but was not apparent in this hand.

H covers

3 limps to H OTB $15 5s7s. Usually an overlimp for me, but I had been vocally called out for being tight by two players, not an image I like to maintain for too long. I was sitting on around $800 after several hours and was hoping to hit gin vs the big stack V3 LJ $1000 who I had a really good handle on. V1-V3 were are ridiculously wide limping ranges and calling ranges, so I was aware this was about to be a $60 or $75 pot going to the flop four or six ways.

V4 calls in the BB. All the limpers call.



Flop 7h 7d 9h ($70)

Checks to me OTB, which the way the table was playing was not standard. Usually someone would donk this multiway. H?

Since we should expect to get calls on that flop, being the initial raiser otb and with that table dynamic, bet on the larger side like 45 to 55 or more.

Also, don't let the players accuse you of being tight. The players who accuse me of it come into a 1K buy in game and go through 3 to 5 buy-in's min., and lose every time so don't take advice from those kinds of players ; ) If you expet to go 6 ways by raising, raise more if you're raising, or over limp it if the blinds are on the weaker side.

You have a value hand on a wet board multi-way. Bet the pot. You could size down on like 77Qr (although even then, it’s not good, you should still bet the pot, because any hands that call half pot will call full-pot). But here, 100%: bet big.

I think you can overlimp and still fight against the tighty image.

Flop, it's a multi way pot with draws available and hands like 86 don't know some of their outs are compromised. Backdoor draws won't call turn that bricks for them but may peel one here.
I'm betting to get calls from all the draws and 9x, pocket pairs that want to keep you honest.

Limping fine, raising slightly less fine at this table but still better than folding.

I always reply "I only play aces" whenever anyone questions my preflop folds.


On flop, esp. 4 ways ... you don't want to bomb it with one of the worst 7s IMO. Lots of the limpers have A7/K7/87/whatever7... so my guess is you want the agro. V4 to raise his draws, but you don't want to have V1-V3 to only continue with good draws and a 7.

I'd probably bet 20 hoping it triggers V4. Without V4 I probably bet 30.

Lot of good suggestions above. Interesting how they are so varied and also all have some interesting reasoning from bet small to the bet pot.

After about 10 seconds of thought and not really knowing what to do vs this insanely wide school of fish other than i should probbly bet something, I bet $40. Im feeling ok but not great about being ahead at this point and also realizing if im not, Im never catching up. In the moment I thought it was only slightly possible anyone had 99. V1-v3 would have almost alwys opened nd v4 would have 3b some percentage. I thought V1-V3 could have any suited 7 and all the one and two gap offsuit varieties. I did not count combos in real time, and only considered I have a 7. There is only one more 7 out there, and then I could not remember the odds of one of the other players having the case 7 in their hands. 20%ish?

I was expecting V4 to insta raise and instead he insta calls. Flush draw? Straight draw? He is playing almost every suited hand and probably as wide as unsuited one gappers at some frequency and all the unsuited connectors that hit this flop. He is so wide, ranging him and counting combos was beyond what I could do without drastically slowing down the game and letting him know how much I was thinking, which would portray at least some weakness to him. Which maybe I want him to raise me? Or does he have a better 7 and is now slow playing what is essentially a monster vs my hand?

Im expecting some more calls and here we go to a turn heads up.



Turn $150 7h 7d 9h 3d. H?

Don't be put off by table talk. Also, of they're accusing you of being too tight it's not because you're limping too much. This is very firmly an overlimp for me.

A big flop bet will polarise opponent to thick value which beats you and draws. You'll end up either value owning yourself or facing a check-raise/bet/bet line with a bluffcatcher. Even vs 3 bad opponents I would not be betting big multiway with a strong but non-nut hand. Weak trips can get you in trouble. A small bet keeps in worse hands as well as all the draws and you can withstand a check-raise more comfortably.

Presumably BB checks turn? If BB is competent he should be somewhat suspicious of your largish multiway flop bet on a board that should favour field callers. You may struggle to get three streets of value here. On a draw heavy board you can bet again now, but I don't hate a check back.

Yes sorry bb checked the turn

I think we gotta bet again, this is one of the top value hands you'll have. Might be checking more with overpair that has a heart.
There's only one 7 left, and so many combos of draws, 9x,+ random crap.

On the other hand, if you check you will often face a river bet from any of the random crap

Hand is basically a slightly better AA, so in general do what you'd do with AA.


Any reads on his flop snap call?
I would assume A7/K7 thinks for a little bit given the draws and 3 people behind ... probably 99/77 also think about if he should raise flop or call for others to call behind etc.
Would also assume he thinks about if he should just fold T9 on the flop given position/etc.
I would tend to assume it's something that can't beat any overpair (so "can't" raise) but doesn't want to fold ... so hearts or T8/86. Or maybe some slow played overpair that can't fold, like JJ/QQ (you kind of implied he's unlikely to have those due to pre. actions though).
It's possible he was thinking about what to do vs. various sizings before it was his turn ... but, eh.

On a related note this is one of the reasons I think it's fine for hero to think about what to do on the flop, because it's easy to balance that by pretending to think ... but it's much harder to balance snap actions when you'd actually like to think about it. In general your hand looks like an overpair, and kind of is.


If we can be sure he doesn't do anything weird "knowing" you don't have a 7, I'd be tempted to bet big on the turn to charge his draws and check back the river ... folding if he ships the turn (assuming that's A7+). So like 120 or even 200.
If you think he's the type that might just go for it with Td8d/8d6d, or even do other weird things, I'd be tempted to go non-exploitive and just do what I'd do with AA ... bet small (50-60) or check.

Def bet flop. Your flop bet is slightly too large for my tastes. Multi-way I would go 30-40%, maybe aim for larger end because ppl call too wide.

@illiterat: 75s is much better than AA in this spot because you block half the 7x combos in V4’s range.

As for the turn, only offsuit 7x he should have is A7 and even that is too wide preflop. If he’s way too wide preflop then he can have 87o,76o I guess. You also lose to K7s,Q7s, J7s,T7s, 97s,87s,76s. Okay, so you’re behind like 12-18 combos of 7x and 3 combos of 99. So let’s say 15-20 combos you’re behind. But he’s an aggressive player and there are a lot of draws on the flop so it’s safe to assume he raises his 7x some amount of the time… he probably traps a bit more on flop because you bet flop so large… like if you had bet 25 I think he raises 7x a lot more….let’s say he raises 7x half the time versus your $40 flop bet, and always traps 99 …then you’re losing to 9-12 combos. Meanwhile you still want to get value from all the combos of 98/T9/J9/Q9/K9/A9 in Vs range….and he probably has a lot of offsuit 9x in his range … if we’re giving him A7o we should also give him A9o/K9o/Q9o/J9o. there’s probably 50-60 combos of 9x in his range. Plus we want to get value/deny equity from the 30ish combos of front door flush draws.

So my advice is to bet turn… you could go half pot or even larger up to 2/3 pot. You shouldn’t really be betting this board very often…like your overpairs should be playing a lot more cautiously given this hand started 5ways and there’s risk anyone could have 7x. So V is liable to get suspicious about how you could be betting (you look FOS) and look you up with 9x. His 9x outnumber his 7x by a large amount (at least a 3:1 or 4:1 margin, and even more if he sometimes raises flop with 7x) so it’s a good value bet if he usually calls 9x. If he wants to call with his draws that’s great for you too, but you also don’t really mind if he folds his draws since they do have pretty decent equity.

I would be tempted to check it back. He's so wide that he's probably only continuing with 7x or big draws anyway, and sounds like he would raise his big draws otf anyway plus the FD's are only a small part of his range. Give him an opportunity to bluff you again


Show him what he's looking for a weak hand that appears to be giving up ott. Let him bluff the river. If we bet 65/75+ and get c/r'd, it's probably with a bigger 7 anyway since we're telling him we have a strong hand by betting the turn, or he probably just folds other hands we beat like 9x.

Illiterat that is exactly what I was thinking on the turn also. This is slightly better AA. But maybe quite a bit better because one less 7 available. I probably check AA back here on the turn almost half the time given we were 5 ways to start the hand.

I had a really really good read on him when he was the one betting or raising after the first time he raised me off a hand. But I had zero reads in this hand as far as physical tells. The one feeling I had throughout the hand instinctively was that he was playing this hand differently than he had others. He snap called the flop with three people behind with little thought given. Saw, my chips and looked at me as he almost immediately slid out his. Mostly he had been in raise or fold mode before. Again it had been said I was playing tight by two people at the table. As suggested I laughed, and in the future I will be using your “I only play aces”. I have heard it before but its always good for a laugh. I had folded to his aggression in the past so there is a good chance he saw me as a tight player beyond what others had said, which if he was there 2 hours before, he would have thought the opposite, but here we were.

So at the time I put him mostly on some kind of draw like you stated and discounted but did not completely exclude 99-JJ. And largely discounted all 7s. Not sure if that was correct but it felt right at the time because he just did not seem like someone into slowplaying. I even gave him a hand like 88 because he would get sticky for one street. 99 is about the only monster I could see at the time, him slow playing the flop and instacalling with based on his play over the last hour.

As far as thinking I did take maybe 10 seconds on the flop. I like what you said about taking more time though. I gave it A brief thought about what to do with my probably overpair and then I was unsure on sizing and said welp 1/2 pot into four people with bad trips?

I did not even consider this in real time maybe because I was so convinced at the time he likely did not have a 7 and I was thinking about my 7 and how he was snapping with a likely flush or straight draw on the flop. Maybe one or two combos with a 7 I thought. Which is sad I did not even consider your line because given my read on him he probably bombs $150 with everything and I can call and never worry bout a CR. And it becomes an easy hand to play. Maybe there are more profitable lines, but none with more guaranteed profitability and the least amount of variance. It is how I would have played AA vs him.

So CIE. I just wrote my 33 novel of the last day and pretty much everything you said went through my head at the time. Like all of it. I took longer on the turn and basically did exactly what you suggested.


OTTH:

I bet exactly half pot. Thinking Im still good here unless he has 99, or the few 7s he might be slow playing. Like how often is this guy going check check with 7x?

H bets $75 and expects to possibly be CR jammed on. I had already made up my mind I was snapping it off. Good decision?

But instead V4 instacalls again. Staring at me the whole time. Im not looking at him much. This is so weird I felt at the time. He has shown zero aggression in this hand. Probably a flush draw.


River is a brick 10c. Villain checks so fast I did not see him check and had to look at him and the awkward did you check thing happens. Wtf is happening.

7h 7d 9h 3d. 10c


Wait that is not even close to a brick I realize. I was so happy a heart did not come. Ughhh he probably has 50% of the 86o in his range. He has at least one combo of 1010. Why is he checking so fast? This is a value bet right? Wait, no check this back right? If I bet any amount and get jammed on after that card can I fold? I went into the blender for 45 seconds.

Pot is $300 on the river

If he is instacalling turn without even considering a raise, I think he basically never has 7x.

I highly doubt he is calling pre with 86o with 3 limpers behind. You said he’s a reg who plays higher and you’ve seen him showdown suited gappers which all sounds consistent with a TAG style. How are you giving him offsuit gappers calling preflop in the worst position on the table with multiple players left to act? That is just way too loose, like giving money away loose. Unless he’s a calling station/ very high VPIP player, I don’t think he has 86o.

A young player described as very aggressive and plays higher should know to 3bet TT versus a BTN squeeze open, so you can give him 0 combos of TT.

Now you do lose to 86s, but we should further discount 7x based on the timing tells above.

You also beat some Tx hands like T8s, maybe JT, Txhh flush draws.

Think you’re still way ahead of his bluffcatching range.

You bet half pot on flop and half pot on turn. Time to go for value versus 9x and Tx hands that dominate his range. Bet around half pot or slightly more — I think this is a spot where a smaller size will look like less bluffy and more like a milky value bet, so I like the larger sizing.

I understand it has a lot more blockers to either flush/straight outs of villain ... and makes it so there's only a single 7 villain can have. However if villain has a 7, we are only in a slightly better spot than AA. Also we probably aren't playing 74, so this is currently our next best hand after AA range wise.

Also blocking V's value range means people tend to overvalue 75 vs. AA, or just be like "lol, trips is much better than an overpair". Like if villain range for raising turn is 90%:7x+ and 10% draws, it doesn't help us enough that he can have only 50% of the 7x hands from when we have AA.

The blockers matter a ton though… having a 7 blocker shifts Vs pair+ range from a mix of 9x/7x to dominant 9x with a sprinkling of 7x.

Just to make up some random numbers for sake of argument if we have AA after V check/calls flop we might be ahead versus 9x/pp around 50% of the time, facing a draw 25% of the time, and facing 7x 25% of the time.
Assuming those numbers are factual, it is true because of the blocking effects that if we have 75s after V check/calls flop we will be ahead versus 9x/pp around 57%, facing a draw 29%, and facing 7x just 14% of the time.


We went from a spot where V’s range composition for 9x:7x is a 2:1 ratio to a spot where range composition for 9x:7x is 4:1. That means we can value bet and not fear a check/raise as often, and correspondingly our value bets are far more profitable because we dominate more often.

Edit: After he raises we’re having a different conversation….but holding a blocker does shift him more towards bluffs, and more importantly in your example where his raising range has 90% value and 10% bluffs, then it does still decrease his raising frequency by about half. So even if he underbluffs with his x/r our 7 blocker definitely adds lots of EV to our betting line just because he doesn’t x/r as often…and when he does x/r we just bet/fold like we always do against uncreative opponents who underbluff (assuming that is our read)

I wouldn't wanna get caught up in assigning people standard TAG ranges when there's really no other info on him except that he's a loose player who likes to bluff. Being a reg and a 2/5 player or higher doesn't really mean anything further in regards to his pf range but I would think he's the type of player who's much more likely to have hands similar to 86o than a good TAG/"reg".

Having trips weak kicker 300 bb's deep isn't exactly the spot where I would automatically wanna fist pump gii.

If I would have to fold to a c/r otr, I would rather just check it back then. That's usually my go-to strategy in these types of spots (of course every situations gonna be different).

I would pretty much discount a 7 here since he flatted twice with a FD on the board, but there are still other hands that loose players can beat us with (99 is still possible as played) so decide now if you're happy to call it off if he c/r's before you even bet.

Usually it’s pretty easy to tell if V is the kind of player to flat 86o in the BB versus a BTN open with many players left to act behind. It’s the kind of player who is defending 70% of his blinds, with VPIP north of 50%. Larry said he’s very loose pre but the examples he gave are that he’s showing down suited 1 and 2 gappers. Larry didn’t give any information as to whether V was playing those hands in late position or what. But an offsuit 1-gapper is in a much weaker hand category from a suited 1-gapper, and just because he’s showing down 97s or T7s in some position does not mean he would play 86o from early position facing a 7.5x open.

Very easy way to tell how loose he is defending in the BB is just to see if he’s calling raises from BB with more than 70% frequency. That should be apparent after a 5 orbits and I would think an observant player like Larry would notice. If he’s playing almost ATC from the blinds then I agree 86o could be in range.

I agree, and add to the equation that the villain seems to be out to get hero, so that might encourage him to play a wider range to begin with which is closer to ATC than a standard range and I'm certainly not discounting the straight for that reason.

but that's just me

He was not that loose pre. He was probably involved in 40% of hands. As far as his BB defense, there was a lot of talking going on for quite awhile and I did not pay close attention to his preflop calling frequencies from different positions just from an overall standpoint. There was no way to totally discount him having 86o, because from the way he was talking and playing he was a feel player. But for sure he has every suited one gapper in this BB defense range. And probably most suited two gappers. Again, the underlying theme to his game when this hand went down is he is making more big bets than the rest of the table combined. He really liked challenging people and putting them to decisions and I could tell he believed he got a big edge from it. Nice guy, huge extroverted talker. Basically the entire side of the table was very social and he was trying to get a lot of information on people about what they thought about every hand that just got played. Not in a know it all way, in a hey im a friendly guy tell me how you play so I can slow down this aggression Im having trouble controlling in the right spots so I win big money off you kind of way. Was talking a lot of strategy with two other people so he was not exactly a good player but he was making things interesting.

He was 100% out to get hero. In a most friendly way. And I was aware of this and thought he would be peeling preflop wider than usual vs me. Plus my stack was large and I think he liked the idea of having it.