Well said.

Pure gold ITT from so many different contributors.

interesting. so we're doing this mostly when we're IP and multi-way on wet boards and hold an overpair, am i right?

seems similar principles would apply OOP, although raising ranges are perhaps wider than c/r ranges OTF? so it may be more difficult to make this profitable since we may wish to call rather than fold to a raise. sound right? or do we often prefer to check when faced with multiple callers and we are OOP? this may be one of those things that is situation dependent..

with fewer opponents (1 or 2) we expect to be up against 2pr+ less often (so we get raised less often) and also expect our opponents to have less attractive implied odds to chase draws, so perhaps betting ~2/3 pot rather than a blocker-sized bet makes more sense?

but now what is our bet sizing with an overpair to a dry board IP & multiway?

Wow, I'm not sure I could fold that unless I saw a big tell. I can't count the number of times I've seen raise/jam by AK there. They just can't believe you might haves aces with no ace on the board.

Great thread.

I consider myself relatively nitty re: bankroll, but seriously, I'd be all over a shot at 5/10 this weekend in your spot. Give yourself two buy-ins and find a fishy Friday night table.

Hey Mpethy, great thread. I just got into Vegas last night. Where will you be playing your next few sessions? It would be fun to meet a 2p2er and play some live. Thanks to all the guys who have been contributing some really solid content.

Depending on reads, calling here is fine too. A lot of 2 pair plus hands should put hero on a flush draw and check/call the river hoping to induce a bluff. Its kind of weird to call the flop if your plan is to pray for a Q or hope that villain just gives up.

For me chatting poker with my opponents was a leak (especially girls) that I have successfully squashed.

I think of bet/fold as a line for out of position, bet there is no reason why that should be the case. If you are in position and bet and get raised, by definition you have been check/raised, and, if anything, that is a stronger move than being raised by someone in position.

So, in my opinion, the b/f thinking I outlined applies more or less equally to whether you are in or out of position.

as for the comment that you are offering attractive pot odds to draw: most draws cannot be denied attractive express pot odds in a live multi-way pot, since you will also get multiple callers ahead of or behind the guy with the draw.

the point to remember about b/f, though, is that you should not be iffering ANY express odds. If you get a caller or two and the turn binks the draws on the board, it'd be pretty insane for you to do anything but c/f the turn.

So you don't really care if you allow him a correct call; you're not paying him off if the draw comes in.

Meanwhile, you have got to keep in mind that in a 4 or 5 way pot, you are in against a composite range of sets, two pair and draws. A lot of the field's range has sucked out on you--against 4 callers you are a dog to their combined ranges, usually--on the losing end of a flip. That's BEFORE you see any flop action, which serves to narrow ranges considerably, as nobody is going to do anything other than play their hand strength against multiple opponents, including one who has shown a lot of strength by leading into 4 players.

Usually, the simple fact is that when you see action on the flop, certainly when you see it from more than one villain, the odds are very good that you've been out flopped.

When I suggested the block size bet, then, my point was this: you accept the chance that you are offering draws attractive odds. The reason for this is because any reasonably sentient villain with a monster will raise to deny the draw pot odds, especially of the drawer has acted ahead of the guy with the monster. He'll put BOTH of you on a draw and raise. This allows you to cheaply play your hand perfectly on the flop.

In the somewhat uncommon situation where you are just called by one or two people and the others fold, you can put those people on a draw with near certainty, and, therefore, play the turn perfectly--you c/f if the draw hits, you v-bet an appropriate size if the turn misses, and get your value there.

Save this play for when some of the callers are competent and are going to have a largely set-mining cold calling range and for flops with clearly defined draws--a flush draw, but no straight, or a straight draw with no flush. you don't want to find yourself trying to guess on the turn which draw the guy was on--the straight draw that missed or the flush draw that hit.

So villain and board selection will make this a very unusual play; but when conditions are right for it, you get nearly perfect information for way less money than a normal c-bet would cost you to be bet/folding.

I played Thursday night at the MGM, and thought the games there were pretty good. I am going to grind the Venetian Friday night, and be back at MGM on Saturday. You'll be able to find me grinding either between 9:00 p.m. and midnight Vegas time for sure; earlier or later are less likely, but highly probable.

As I said upthread, you'll be looking for a mid-40s guy with a pony tail who is mid-way between tragically and comically ugly.

I enjoy 2+2ers saying hi, so feel free to stop by if you see me!

Are you still just playing 1/2, or have you played any more 2/5 as well?

Just 1/2 and 1/3. I've been down swinging pretty badly since the end of the first week. At one point I was down to being up on the trip a whopping $18. Back up well into the green, and might start playing some 2/5 again before I leave. Haven't really decided yet.

thanks for the in-depth response. i had to digest this a couple of times before replying. it all makes much more sense now.

at the end you mentioned that this line works best on somewhat wet flops but with clearly defined draws, b/c it makes your turn decisions easier. so for multi-way flops that do have 2 or more big draws (e.g. SD + FD), what would you usually do?

i guess the answer there may be "it depends"....

Ha, yeah, it depends on how multi-way it is and how wet the board is.

If it is 5 way to the flop, maybe even 4 way, and you get a disaster of a flop like 9c Tc Js and you have the red aces, I actually wouldn't mind check/folding. I would go so far as to say that online check/folding would be standard.

I have, however, noticed a propensity for the live players to enter the pot with significantly weaker draws, and to call with weaker draws, so I am not sure I would always check/fold live.

If I had red KK on that board I might check/call one street. With red QQ I would almost certainly check/call.

____________________________

I'm on a bit of a hot streak these last 3 days. Nothing major, just three solid sessions in a row.

I played what I think was my best and most satisfying session tonight. After starting out down ~30 bbs, I chipped up steadily all night, finished up 65 bb in 3.5 hours of play, and only ever had the chance to value bet one hand. That hand got me back to break even, so I chipped up from 100bb to 165bb without ever having a hand I thought was best.

Just a series of standard c-bets with air and a series of fairly well executed bluffs--maybe a total of 4 of them.

___________________________________

In other news tonight, my wife and I had a fairly long conversation about it today, and we have basically decided to move out here as soon as we can make it happen.

My friend out here, who is an attorney (I used to be one) and a very sharp guy (I used to be one ), and who has some friends who are experts in the real estate biz, have been talking. My original plan was to just pay cash for a house. But after talking to them and my younger brother, it is looking possible that we are going to form an LLC with my wife, me and my brother pooling some capital to buy a small package of properties out here, one of which my wife and I will live in. We're thinking we could buy as many as four, maybe only 3 properties.

Whether we go forward with this plan in conjunction with our move out here, or afterward is still pretty up in the air. Doing it in conjunction with the move would be best from a financing perspective, but doing it after we move out here would be easier, as I wouldn't be out here trying to buy three or four properties in a short period of time. Waiting would also allow us to study the market, rather than simply relying on the advice of the local experts we know.

So, I dunno. But if I had to guesstimate the probability that my wife and I will be living in Vegas this time next year, I would put it in the 80-90% range. If I had to guesstimate the chances we'll also be landlords, i would put it at even money.

SWEET!

cool. that seems like about what i was thinking

Wow, are you thinking residential rentals? I can almost understand buying a home, mostly for emotional reasons, stability, etc. But from a residential perspective, Vegas was overbuilt in 2006. Considering the population is lower now, it's grossly overbuilt.

I encourage you to dig up news stories and articles from a few years ago. Speculators from all over, especally California, were buying new construction like crazy, and whole neighborhoods sat vacant. All owned by speculators. Those houses still exist. I watched the news pretty intently back then, and made a lot of moey shorting homebuilders and mortgage companies that no longer exist.

If u find the time I would really appreciate u posting more typical live hands. The structured way u present and analyse them really suggest u are a good coach

Thanks for the kind words.

Since I have gotten out here, I have been thinking a lot about the problem of exploiting players that fall into the range of pretty good. This thought was necessitated by the fact that most nights there are now multiple "pretty good" players in a given 1/2 or 2/5 game.

What I have been looking to do is to pounce on obvious mistakes and punish them.

Here are three hands I have played in the last couple of sessions that I played against "pretty good" players.

Leak 1: C-betting too aggressively.

The villain (UTG) in this hand clearly learned his chops on the internet. He was raising first in with a wide range of hands from all positions and c-betting close to 100% of the time. he was probably playing 28/24 or so, not positionally aware.

I am in the BB with JT

UTG+1 raises to $7, MP2 calls, folded to me in the BB, I call.

Flop (~$20): 257

I check, UTG bets $20, MP2 folds, I raise to $55, UTG folds.

This is really a tough board for him to rep anything on. Only about a quarter of his raising range is pocket pairs, and less than that are heart flush draws; thus, this c/r should fold out most of his range. The pot size bet looked like an attempt to buy the pot. So a bad c-bet and a suspiciously sized bet triggered the check/raise.

Leak 2: Bet-Sizing Tells.

Same villain as hand one, maybe 3 orbits later.

I have forgotten exactly what the preflop action was. Villain from hand one was the initial raiser. I was in LP with 75 There is a raise to $8 and 3 callers, including me. I am last to act post flop.

Flop (~$30): Q74 Flop checks through.

Turn ($30): 3

Villain bets $15, one player calls, one folds, I call.

River ($75): 2

Villain bets $20, MP folds, I raise to $70, villain folds.

The villain made it abundantly clear on both the turn and the river that he had medium showdown value that he was trying to get a little value with. He had a crappy queen, JJ-88, a better 7 than mine, and maybe some busted flush draws that were bluffing (but I doubt it). I was pretty sure this was his range on the turn, and positive on the river. None of this range can call the raise when there is a straight and lots of possible low sets. My plan when I called the turn was to either suck out or probably turn my hand into a bluff on any non- river if he led out, or rep the flush if I was checked to on a I would have folded if he made a reasonable c-bet on a on the river.

His river bet size allowed me to basically turn off my brain. he made it very clear with the blocking size bet that he had a weak hand that couldn't call a raise, so my raise was basically automatic, though I did Hollywood a bit on sizing it.

Hand 3: I'm not sure how to characterize the tendency I was exploiting here. This woman was just uncomfortable facing aggression--I guess you could say she was weak/tight.

Effective stacks are 150bb.

I am MP1 with A6

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, I limp, she raises to $6, folded back to UTG, and all 3 limpers call.

Flop ($24): 642 It checks to her, she leads for $16, folded to me, I call.

Turn ($56): T

I check, she bets $30, I raise to $90, she tanks and folds JJ face up.

I actually think she played the hand fine, but because she had shown prior evidence of being weak tight, I figured I could bluff her off an overpair.

As an aside, I showed this bluff, maybe the first time I have ever showed a live bluff. While I still had my cards, several people at her end of the table started telling her that she had made a good fold, and she was beaming happily. So I turned over my cards and tossed them among that group of 4 players.

I figured the opportunity to sow some doubt in 4 heads at once was too good to pass up.

What was the point of advertising on Hand 3?

Seems counter-productive to me.

Actually I have a few objections that I have to get off my chest.

Hand 1 - Sure he has a tonne of air but why use a part of your range with so little equity if called. Also no idea how deep you are. And its not as if you are repping a ton of hands anyway. I am pretty sure he has more strong hands in his c-betting range than you have in your c/r range.

Hand 2 - what are you doing calling with 75ss anyway? Not sure I even like the turn overcall - not all of your outs are clean and its not as if you give a range or a tendency which would give some implied odds. And the brick raise repping nothing with a small bit of history - geez....

Hand 3 - overlimping suited Ace meh ok but that is gonna bleed through time - I suppose you might get paid off enough flush over flush. But if she tank folds JJ - what does that tell you about the EV of the play. My guess is JJ is the bottom of her doubling range and she tank folded. Then you showed A6 - I mean its kinda confused advertising anyway are you thinking you are saying I can bluff you off better hands or are you saying look I dont know what a value-bet is a raise cause I think a pair is the nutz.

In my experience, he will now be labelled "that crazy bluffing guy" and will find it easy to get paid off when he flops a set or some other big hand. I don't think that you want to make your money in these games by betting people off of better hands (how often is this going to happen?), you want them to stack off to you when they are way behind. Showing one bluff usually does the trick!

I would imagine for hand 1 he was assuming the villian would fold to his c/r. But I would be interested to hear what the plan was for the turn in case he did call. I wouldn't be surprised if he c/f the turn if his c/r on the flop was called.

What's wrong with calling 7-5 suited with 3 people already in the hand knowing that you have position post flop? And the way he played out the hand I think has more to do with his read on the villian rather than the equity of his hole cards.

The main point of post was to show how he exploited leaks of the villians with bluffs. He could have done that with any two cards.

seems to me he's repping the three possible sets and maybe 88, 99 here pretty well.

with 2 callers before, at 1/2 live, in position, i think we have implied odds to call a 4bb raise with suited one-gappers. i think floating turn would be reads-dependent, on both villains, but it looks like hero had the necessary reads to justify his plan (semi-bluffing non-heart rivers). i don't have a problem with this.

villain's river bet sizing is almost too small to be a blocker bet to me, however. it's $20 into a $75. i almost feel like, if i were playing this hand, i would just flat it, thinking he's looking for thin value with QQ or the likes. it would align with some of his actions in the rest of the hand too (PFR, check flop OOP). only his turn bet sizing, with the turn card adding draws, is too small for top set with 2 opponents, tilting his range towards middling, medium showdown value hands. mpethy, how likely did you think it was that villain was thin v-betting a monster here?

i am also overlimping in this spot, so i'm curious about your comments Digger. i'm guessing you would advocate raising? i would raise this at certain tables, however at most of the loose-passive type 1/2 tables i play at, A6s is a good IO multi-way hand. hero was MP1 here so i'm fine with the overlimp. your thoughts?

i didn't understand the rest of what you said about this hand at all

Digger, as always, you make excellent points.

Hand 1: I guess I should have clarified that my plan when i made the preflop call was to c/r the guy on most flops. If that hadn't been my plan, I would have folded preflop, as this hand is not good enough for me to want to play OOP from the blinds. Online, I fold this hand unless there is a fish in the hand.

This was a good flop for my plan, simply because he couldn't have hit it very had at all most of the time. If you stove this, you will see that he has to fold most of his range. That makes the bluff +EV, and I can just give up when called.

Hand 2: I don't think you are questioning the preflop call, which I assume you know is standard, but you are questioning the turn call when it checks through on the flop.

I think that call is standard, too. It checked through on the flop, so it is possible that he is stabbing with air. It is possible he picked up the flush draw on the turn and is betting it.

Conversely, it is possible that he had medium show down value and the MP caller picked up the flush draw. He made a delayed c-bet, so I made a delayed float. At that moment, I have all of the usual options floating brings.

At any rate, ranges are weak for my opponents in this hand.

I am NOT folding middle pair when I have a lot of potential outs, there is a tiny but non-zero chance that I have the best hand on the turn, and I am in against weak opponents who are going to make mistakes in the hand.

That is why I called the turn with a plan A and a Plan B--Suck out is plan A, bluff a lot of rivers was plan B.

Hand 3: This is an adjustment I have made specifically for live play, and I think it is a good one. over limping the suited aces from pretty much any position at the really loose passive tables seems to work very well. This was such a table.

As for the bluff itself: Yeah, I assume JJ was the bottom of her value doubling range, too, although I had seen her double two flush draws up to this point then c/f when she didn't get there, so I know she had some flush draws in her range, too. But mainly this play was aimed at her overpairs.

What somebody else said was, imo, exactly right. You will not make your money in these games bluffing people off overpairs. As a general rule, that is excellent advice. In most spots I have seen, a raise has less fold equity than a comparable move online would have.

That said, there can be exceptions to the general rule, and I think all 3 of these hands are decent examples of when to deviate from the general rule. Neither of these targets were clueless drunks. They both seemed like pretty good players who were familiar with aggression and c-betting and standard betting lines. They were just the sort of players I would be looking to bluff--the girl was good enough to know that stack-a-donk is a strong line that usually beats overpairs, but not good enough to know that it would have been a bad line on a flop that wet.

The guy was a good enough player to know that he should downsize his raises when he has a lot of weak hands in his raising range, and he was good enough to know about c-betting. He may even have known that I wasn't repping much of a range with my c/r (I doubt that); but he wasn't good enough to do anything about it.

k so since you and Digger agree on that i must be wrong lol. are you saying this b/c you are pretty much only repping the 3 possible sets in that spot? (do you rep 88 and 99 here at all?)

in that case i could see how there's a very narrow range of hands that you rep with your c/r, thus if he was really good he could repop you. is that right?

Hand1. - Matt - I accept that you can make the play if he is c-betting 100% of the time. I also accept that with live poker you get only so many hands vs a villian that if you want to exploit something you might be more inclined to take less than optimal spots cause they might not appear.

But JT on 752 with no bd flushing outs mean that when you are called you have only a few cards where you pick up equity. Even just making the 2 a diamond would make this alot better then you can barrell on a diamond and an 8 and 9 which would be 15 cards.

Also whilst there is some perceived difference in strength between c/r and raising in position - I think you should have waited until you were in position HU vs his c-bet rather than OOP. The amount of peels OOP to a raise from villian will be alot less than IP.

I think they are two technical aspects of the hand that I think could be improved.


Hand 3 - Just specifically on the advertising. I dont think showing a woman is a good policy in general..........its kinda douchey by most players and it can get the table playing back at you.
So if she is weak-tight - I think that is kinda good for us and we dont want to change it. Non showdown winnings being more valuable than anything else.