2/5 NLHE 8 handed

V1 - Loose passive, same as the average 1/3 player. 240$. BTN.

V2 - Massive whale. Buys in for the max and just clicks buttons. All the good regs are just trying to get into a hand with him. Covers. BB.

H - Has tight or weak tight image to good regs at this table and V1 and V2 have no clue. H just rebought after calling V1 river x/r jam on a 9d-7h-5h-Th-9h with AhJd when V1 OOP x x x x all the way down to the river and H went for value OTR and V1 x/raised giving H about 5:1 pot odds, V1 had 55. So I'm a little tilted. 700$. MP.

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H opens A K, TAG in LJ to 50, V1 calls 50, V2 calls 50, H 4bets to 250, TAG folds, V1 and V2 call (V1 calls AI). 3 ways 2nd to act.

Flop 800ish Main, 20 side (450 back) - Q 3 2

V2 donks 125, Hero?

He probably called wide pre and hit something that he expects to crack aces but it doesn't look like there's enough info/hh's from him to justify calling off the rest of your stack here with ace high.

Well let's give v2 a pair Q or lower and you probably have 6 outs + the backdoor straight draw. Seems close between call and fold
If there's any chance this is A4/A5 then lean call

Dislike 4betting pre to $250 with bad table image. Nobody is gonna fold. If you’re gonna 4b just shove

As played with no backdoor fd not closing the action I just fold. Qxx is a horrid flop for ak because all dominated hands just reverse dominated you.

With the 3bet and two cold callers I don't like the less than 2x pot size.
If you don't want to go variance you are allowed to call and check to the TAG, and have relative position on him and the fish.


Doubt V2 is ever folding, he doesn't have to have a monster though. Low chance he does this with worse into a dry side pot but against a bunch of random pairs you have decent equity.
Probably flip a coin?
If you don't really want to gamble the extra 450 you can fold, if you don't mind then don't fold.

Raise bigger pre. $300 or just jam.

As played, it's annoying but I think I fold flop.

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I don't like your 4bet to 250 with these stacksizes, I may actually prefer to just jam instead in this spot. And if I don't want to jam, I'd flat the 50 and and take it from there.

I jammed flop lol

do you take it personally when people donk bet into you or something? you seem to do this alot vs those bets.

I would just jam preflop.

Getting here this way I wouldn't be able to fold to the stupid flop bet even though we probably should. Id just call it though.

Not folding for $125 into $800 with 2 overs and back door broadway and wheel draw.

Result:

Harrington wrote in his tournament book that if you 're going to put one third of your stack preflop, you might as well jam.

The 4bet seems too big to me, because you set up a situation in which the pot SPR is half in which case you might feel committed to put the rest of your stack without a pair.

I also don't understand why you would 4bet to 3x the 3bet plus 2 3bets for each caller. There's no rule that says you should use those betsizings.

Either raise to something like to 170, or if you think you re going to get called 3way and 4 way just jam (though that's not something recommended with AKs.)

Agreed. If there's no practical 4bet size, we should jam or call.

Because YOLO?

One of the few things that's less likely than us having the best hand here is villain folding.

Pretty sure one of the main reasons for bad players to donk, outside of clicking buttons, is the obvious pain some regs are having with it. There aren't many things as amusin as seeing a reg who is visibly annoyed because they got donked into and have no idea what to do.

I often have a hard time understanding what randoms think about donking ... but I'd guess it's closer to "Oh, I have top pair and I'm calling it off so let's bet" if they go further than that and realize it's a board that doesn't hit much so there might be a lot of checks I'm much less sure. Or, as you say, if they know it's so non-std. that people will have difficulty in the moment realizing what the correct thing to do is with a bunch of hands.

Funny when I see it, less funny when I bee it.

Coming back to this one. Was reading the OP on my phone when I made my first post, and got a little lost with the numbers.

Agree with others that pre should either be a flat call or all in jam. I don't think either option can be too wrong, but raising $250 off $700 can't be right, no matter what we're holding.

About the donking - I used to find it really annoying, but now it's just amusing, because it's usually very transparent.

If V is good, like, better than average, he might have a really well balanced donking range that includes thick value and high-equity bluffs, especially in multi-way pots.

But more often than not, it's a weakish top pair or a draw looking to set a cheap price to chase. There are no real draws on this board, unless V is in the habit of calling off 3B's pre (following an all-in jam) with 54.

V obviously flopped top pair, and wants to make sure money goes in. He didn't bet to fold to a raise.

But even if he's only got 54, which seems unlikely, he's got 14 outs to improve. He's going to get there half the time. Maybe we can peel one off and see what he does on the turn, but there's no shame in folding to this flop bet when we've already torched $250 pre.

We've all stepped on our crank before. It takes a special kind of stubborn to do it twice in quick succession.

If your stack here worth losing out to someone with a queen here? IT's such a dry flop with one person betting and one calling I' get away from it. Also, why are you only playing iwth 700 if you want to take what you see as a whale? Wait for a better spot wtih him. With only 700 and 150 in the pot preflop, there's a good argument to shove and take that with no risk of runout.