Middle pairs against LAGs going all in..
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 555
1-2 NL Holdem
V1 - Very Loose aggressive player, but refuses to top up. Sitting with maybe 100 in front. UTG
V2- Calling station with 500 in front. Been getting lucky. Middle position
Hero - image of being tight, but just reraised a big pot with the nuts in a previous hand. Felt like V1 was getting upset with me. On the Button.
V1 calls. V2 Snap calls.
Hero looks down to see 8h7h. Hero calls. 2 donkeys in the hand with position.
Small blind calls. Big Blind Checks
(10$)
Flop comes Q-8-2 rainbow.
V1 checks
V2 Check
Hero bets $10 with middle pair and no kicker.
The blinds fold.
V1 pauses. He grabs his whole stack and goes all in for around $90.
V2 snap folds.
Call or fold?
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 485
What’s our stack here? I might raise pre to iso IP. As played, bet less OTF/fold. Lots of limp/called Qx in his range, no draws on the board. We can’t even beat T8s+. Don’t go broke in an unraised pot ...
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 555
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,678
Surely this is pretty low in our betting range, and it's debatable whether we should bet in the first place. Seems like an easy fold.
Full-stacked I'd definitely raise pre. With a spewy short player limping UTG we could get jammed on pre or not have a lot of room to maneuver post with a hand that likes to see turns and rivers. I would overlimp also.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 25,857
If this person is a true LAG, alarm bells should have gone off as soon as he limped in and then checked the flop. LAGs attack pots that seem to be unclaimed. When they check, it is to trap. That would mean this is a snap x/f on the flop.
The problem is that it is unlikely the villain is really a LAG. Even some of his bluffing range beats Hero, though. It isn't a snap x/f, but in this case it is still a x/f.
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,575
I wouldn't bet flop with middle pair in a multiway limped pot almost regardless of opponents' tendencies. However, as Venice10 points out, here one V is likely trapping while short stacked so it's an especially bad time to bet a weak flop holding.
What value are you getting? Gutshots and gutshot+BDFDs have 10 or 11 outs against your hand and there are barely any 8X with smaller kickers than yours. Will anyone call with 77- here?
What better hands are folding to your bet? Is 99 or T8 going away for one bet on the flop? Obviously no QX is folding here.
What happens if we get called? Given the most likely answers to the above we have to assume we're beat a lot more than 50% of the time we're called so we're going to have to check back a lot of turns. This means an aggro player can bet river into us with a mix of busted gutshots and hands stronger than ours - even if he "turns some pairs into bluffs" they're still going to beat us. So by the river we barely even have a bluff catcher.
Villain's X/R on flop is nice because it clarifies villain's range for us and gives us an easy fold BUT we could have found out the same for free by checking back on the flop and observing all villains' turn actions before we act. Of course then we might have spiked 2-pair/trips or a backdoor draw.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 8,233
any good lag recognizes the importance of playing full stacked. Refusing to top up while playing lag just tells me he's a tilted rec. With that info I fold. He'll do this with Q2, J9, etc. I do NOT think he'll do this with super low pairs though. He probably just figures no way you have him beat every time so he's just gon do what he gon do and thats get it in repeatedly with pairs. Now if I had A8 I'd snap him off.
