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Medium Pairs against a LAG Medium Pairs against a LAG

07-30-2019 , 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69
OK newb I'm going to assume you are new around here.

I'm not interested in reading multi paragraphs on the merits of a 4b. Are you doing this for value or as a bluff? I assume for value. Can you provide any sort of a realistic range for a perceived LAG? Do you not like playing in position?

Do you think LAGs will bluff/c-bet more than the general 1/3 poker population? Do you want to give him the opportunity to do that or shut that down by narrowing his range with a 4b?



THAT'S GOOD! Why wouldn't you want to play post flop IP against a LAG who will likely c-bet almost his whole range in a 3b pot? I'm curious
Ive answered every single one of these questions already and if you think you are too far above posters here to actually read the thread I think it would be better not make comments. Its a lot easier for someone to cast stones by asking a pile of questions because it deflects from actually having to explain your thought process.

Last edited by AAJTo; 07-30-2019 at 04:18 PM.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 04:34 PM
You've put him on a3b range? What is that range? Do you have a continuing range when he 4b?

If he is truly LAG I'll range him as follows For a 3b: TT+, AXs, ATo+, K9s+, KJo+, QJo, QTs+, JTs

Then some smaller percentage of the time he may 3b 22-99, 67s+, 79s, 8Ts, J9s, JTo.

Does that seem reasonable? I realize it's not exact but we have to start with something
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 04:35 PM
Now if that is a reasonable representation of a possible range what does his continuing range look like when facing a 4b?
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69
You've put him on a3b range? What is that range? Do you have a continuing range when he 4b?

If he is truly LAG I'll range him as follows For a 3b: TT+, AXs, ATo+, K9s+, KJo+, QJo, QTs+, JTs

Then some smaller percentage of the time he may 3b 22-99, 67s+, 79s, 8Ts, J9s, JTo.

Does that seem reasonable? I realize it's not exact but we have to start with something
I added in 77+ to his range and threw in 1 suited connector, 1 suited gapper to be fair to the range you are giving here. Id argue there is a lot more random spaz stuff in a standard maniacs 3bet range since they aren't the type to follow logic of preflop hand selections and the description OP has given leads us to believe that V could be tilted and playing back at us with anything.

Regardless. The range you yourself have given V here is 46.6% vs 99. There is also $65ish in the pot which adds a very large amount of EV to our side. Shoving removes all the difficulty in the hand and since I am a mediocre player at best I like to keep things simple and take a small edge when I see one instead of playing guessing games with vulnerable hands against someone who is going to fire in a small SPR pot. Id also like to reiterate what GG said about position not being that valuable under these circumstances.

Making marginal plays like this for big bets also sets us up in the future against a guy who is willing to move large amounts of chips with weaker holdings where we can sneak in some bigger hands that have him crushed.

Isnt talking about poker more fun and educational when you get specific instead of saying "Calling is the correct play and it seems 100% standard"?

Last edited by AAJTo; 07-30-2019 at 05:04 PM.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 05:01 PM
This is a fold. I am less concerned that V3 raised hero than I am that V3 raised V1, the initial raiser. Hero describes this player as being weak tight. V1 was in early position and raised. Most villains like V1 do not do so with hands worse than 99. You have to assume that V3 realizes this and was still willing to re-raise V1. Hence, I cannot believe that V3 has a hand worse than 99, and hero should fold given the SPR with a call.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69
You've put him on a3b range? What is that range? Do you have a continuing range when he 4b?

If he is truly LAG I'll range him as follows For a 3b: TT+, AXs, ATo+, K9s+, KJo+, QJo, QTs+, JTs

Then some smaller percentage of the time he may 3b 22-99, 67s+, 79s, 8Ts, J9s, JTo.

Does that seem reasonable? I realize it's not exact but we have to start with something
Entering the first part of the range you constructed, Equilab gives us equity of 50%. I'm just trying to understand how a call is standard. I readily admit that I feel uncomfortable playing marginal hands which this clearly seems to be.

For those of you advocating a call OTF, what is our plan for this hand? No set, no bet? The IO just aren't there. We should of folded OTF. Just how many flops are there to continue on? Considering V's description, we sure can't be expecting the opportunity to check back OTF.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAJTo
Shoving removes all the difficulty in the hand and since I am a mediocre player at best I like to keep things simple and take a small edge when I see one instead of playing guessing games with vulnerable hands against someone who is going to fire in a small SPR pot.
So you want to expose 310 to win 67 to make things easier?
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan
So you want to expose 310 to win 67 to make things easier?
That sounds really reckless when you put it like that but I'd like point out that calling pre puts the pot at $100 and we are going to 95% of the time facing a cbet. We would be risking $120ish of our own money (depending on cbet size) just to potentially fold to a semi scary turn where we don't know if V hit or not? Are we shoving to a 1 over flop cbet? Id like for the people advocating calling pre here to explain how they are going to play this hand out.

Are we going to fold to a flop that is A high? Probably.
Are we going to fold to a flop that has 2 overs? Certainly.
Are we guaranteed to be ahead when we get an above average flop with 1 over? No.

Calling pre and calling a cbet just to potentially fold on the turn sounds a lot more reckless to me and if we are willing to call off our stack on a 1 over board why don't we just put it in pre where going all in gives us the fold equity instead of the maniac?

Last edited by AAJTo; 07-30-2019 at 05:23 PM.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 05:22 PM
Slim, what's your postflop plan? SPR is < 3, dude is going to likely follow up with a cbet 99% of the time, and most flops suck ass.

Gthere'snotexactlyalottapokerlefttobeplayedinthish and,imoG
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
Slim, what's your postflop plan? SPR is < 3, dude is going to likely follow up with a cbet 99% of the time, and most flops suck ass.

Gthere'snotexactlyalottapokerlefttobeplayedinthish and,imoG


Yeah it's not ideal from a stack depth perspective. I'm sure I'll call some flops and fold some. Calling a lot of Txx, Jxx type flops. Maybe some paired boards. Folding boards like KQx, etc. Not raising many if any boards

Last edited by bwslim69; 07-30-2019 at 06:05 PM.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 06:01 PM
Again his 3b range is not the same as his continuing range when facing a 4b or shove pre. So just saying we are 45 or 48% pre against his 3b range doesn't mean we should just Pile to realize that equity
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 06:57 PM
"The biggest thing for you to understand is that... Most low stakes live poker players are still stuck in 2003. After the Moneymaker boom a tonne of people started playing poker and a lot of them liked to stack off with over 200bb with 1 pair on the flop and all the guys that won the money back then were super nitty who relied on flopping sets. The ones that still have money are those nitty post flop guys and they havent changed since 2003. There are almost no fish left that like to stack off with 200bb with 1 pair. Because of this you need to adapt your game - and people are still making really big mistakes, they are just making mistakes that are harder to see because the majority of you dont understand fold equity. The way you beat these players is by continuously applying pressure and figuring out which street they are folding too often on and attacking that street during the hand. You're never going to win somebodies full stack unless you semi bluff and run into a set and get there. You are going to make most of your profit when people bleed money to you by folding too often because they dont understand proper defense frequencies. Thats how you win in todays poker."

My favorite quote Ive run into relearning the game this past half year. If you are calling "just" $35 more to wait for a set or an all undercard flop you are part of the group of suckers slowly donating their money away. ive repeated myself enough this thread, Im done making comments.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 07:26 PM
I like a call here since we are IP.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAJTo
"The biggest thing for you to understand is that... Most low stakes live poker players are still stuck in 2003. After the Moneymaker boom a tonne of people started playing poker and a lot of them liked to stack off with over 200bb with 1 pair on the flop and all the guys that won the money back then were super nitty who relied on flopping sets. The ones that still have money are those nitty post flop guys and they havent changed since 2003. There are almost no fish left that like to stack off with 200bb with 1 pair. Because of this you need to adapt your game - and people are still making really big mistakes, they are just making mistakes that are harder to see because the majority of you dont understand fold equity. The way you beat these players is by continuously applying pressure and figuring out which street they are folding too often on and attacking that street during the hand. You're never going to win somebodies full stack unless you semi bluff and run into a set and get there. You are going to make most of your profit when people bleed money to you by folding too often because they dont understand proper defense frequencies. Thats how you win in todays poker."



My favorite quote Ive run into relearning the game this past half year. If you are calling "just" $35 more to wait for a set or an all undercard flop you are part of the group of suckers slowly donating their money away. ive repeated myself enough this thread, Im done making comments.


I know we went back and forth on this and please don't take this for anything but what it is. If you are going to rely on soundbites and other people's experiences to guide you you are destined to fail

Do the math. Understand conceptually why certain actions are taken. Understand that we are in position and can win this hand in several ways beyond flopping sets or seeing all under card flops. Understand that LAGs will cbet and barrel with hands much weaker than OPs hand.

Just saying I'm not very good post flop so I'm going to shove is really bad strat. And folding to "wait for a better spot" is fish speak.

If anything and you think you are a mediocre player this hand should be a call to better understand the game Dynamics even if you come to the same conclusion ultimately. Good luck
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 08:15 PM
"You are going to make most of your profit when people bleed money to you by folding too often because they dont understand proper defense frequencies. Thats how you win in todays poker."

My favorite quote Ive run into relearning the game this past half year. If you are calling "just" $35 more to wait for a set or an all undercard flop you are part of the group of suckers slowly donating their money away. ive repeated myself enough this thread, Im done making comments." - AAJTo

Well it's too bad that you are done with the comments. I'd really like to read your thoughts on this apparent contradiction. So most of your profit comes from players that fold too much. But the suckers are the ones that call too much.

I'm thinking your profits come from identifying which players call or fold too much and exploiting that tendency. Calling $35 when you have 100 behind is different than when you have 1000.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69
I know we went back and forth on this and please don't take this for anything but what it is. If you are going to rely on soundbites and other people's experiences to guide you you are destined to fail

Do the math. Understand conceptually why certain actions are taken. Understand that we are in position and can win this hand in several ways beyond flopping sets or seeing all under card flops. Understand that LAGs will cbet and barrel with hands much weaker than OPs hand.

Just saying I'm not very good post flop so I'm going to shove is really bad strat. And folding to "wait for a better spot" is fish speak.

If anything and you think you are a mediocre player this hand should be a call to better understand the game Dynamics even if you come to the same conclusion ultimately. Good luck
I have been very specific all the way through this thread and given many examples of my thoughts. The closest you've came to saying anything specific is starting on V3's opening hand ranges which myself and another person easily debunked. You've gone back into the name calling phase because you are pretending you know what you are doing while pointing the finger at someone else.
You are also clinging onto comments that other people in this thread have already picked apart. Why are you reiterating how you're going to outplay a maniac in a low SPR pot while not answering GG's very obvious question about this subject? Is GG a bad poker player? Are his words meaningless here?

You can share with us what your game plan is post flop after you call and are faced with a cbet or are you scared to "show us the math" and the "several ways" you are going to win this hand after calling?

Quote:
Well it's too bad that you are done with the comments. I'd really like to read your thoughts on this apparent contradiction. So most of your profit comes from players that fold too much. But the suckers are the ones that call too much.
Boom. Out of retirement. That quote can be applied to the people in this thread who think that calling pre, calling a cbet and folding to a turn jam is a good play here. That would qualify as calling too much and then folding.

Still waiting for a single person to describe in detail how we are going to play this hand post flop. Not one comment on what the game plan would be.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 08:41 PM
Good luck AAJTo. No longer interested
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 08:42 PM
Am I missing something OP???


Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyCold
So you just doubled up against main V and have $320 in front?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenewoldpro
A few hands ago, I lost a hand in between.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyCold
So why aren't you topping off to a full stack. You would have $600 in front instead of $320.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenewoldpro
I don’t understand. The max buy in is 300.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-30-2019 , 10:27 PM
Fold pre

As played:

V3 is squeezing you
V3 will play for V1’s effective $150 stack pre or post but got a fold from him

Hero, if the soul read is there... Jam and go after 20% of your effective $320 of cash that’s in the middle.

Do you feel something?

Good it means you’re alive. Welcome to the variance train.

Unless V3 folds to your shove... you just met fold equity. She’s purrrrty
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-31-2019 , 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyCold
Am I missing something OP???
I had about 300 in front, the max buy in. Probably a little less, maybe 270-280. I don’t usually top up unless I’m down 50 or more. I had aces vs v3., he raised preflop..I reraised.. he called. He went all in on a flush draw. I called and won.

A few hands later I took a bad beat to a completely different player. Now I am back down to about 320 again.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-31-2019 , 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3xMassGainer
Fold pre

As played:

V3 is squeezing you
V3 will play for V1’s effective $150 stack pre or post but got a fold from him

Hero, if the soul read is there... Jam and go after 20% of your effective $320 of cash that’s in the middle.

Do you feel something?

Good it means you’re alive. Welcome to the variance train.

Unless V3 folds to your shove... you just met fold equity. She’s purrrrty
Yeah I feel something.. fear. I dont want to lose my whole stack on a coin flip.
I already encountered a better opportunity to make money off of v3.. time for patience. I ended up folding. But I had some doubts. Very likely v3 had bothing and was just squeezing two tight players. I am glad people are arguing. Makes me feel better that I wasn’t sure myself.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
07-31-2019 , 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenewoldpro
I am glad people are arguing.
I like the arguaments. I sponge the divergent perspectives to shape my own game.

Hero please have a plan before you do anything.

You flatted 99 in mp to a tightpassive 150 effective stack $10 open and ended up in oh sh*t what do I DoNowLand

Did you have a plan for your flat with the stacks and playing personality styles yet to act?
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
08-01-2019 , 01:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAJTo
Bonus story: My biggest pot ever won was in a similar dynamic as OP and I also had 99. I jammed for $550 pre and got called by a maniac calling station with an underpair.
so your biggest pot of all time was for ~$1100? sick brag.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote
08-01-2019 , 02:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProRailbird
so your biggest pot of all time was for ~$1100? sick brag.
Ive been playing for 4 months and never played 2/5.
Medium Pairs against a LAG Quote

      
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