Backstory...

Player A ($160) - have played with this player a number of times the past month, a self-professed MTT-internet pro, probably 25 white kid, hat, headphones, buys in full 150bb (east coast casino), playing live cash since BF.

Player B ($220) - older Asian super-LAG with solid shortstacking game, but probably not a winning player due to several huge leaks once he builds his stack (commits TPBK for shoves of 200+bb on draw-heavy boards, wildly-overblown opening sizings preflop...routinely 9+bb) likes to bluff-raise flop, float/steal-OTT, etc.

Player C ($175) - new youngish player to the table, a complete unknown as hand takes place in his second orbit.

Player D ($225) - 40's African-American gentleman, tight-passive with a penchant for hero calls, solid fundamentals preflop, fit or fold post-flop.

Hero ($600) - aggro image but not necessarily tight, maybe SLAG due to previous hand with Player A in which Hero (after 90min straight folding 6high or worse) ran a two-barrel bluff with KTss from LP and was called down by KJo, Hero shut down, V spiked a J OTR, Hero showed first (to keep the image tarnished and hopefully get some action down the road)...

The Hand:

Player A opens for $14 UTG+1, Player B Calls MP, Player C Calls MP2, folds to Hero on BU who calls 56, Player D calls from SB.

Flop ($70): 653

Player D donks $18, all call to Hero...who shoves.

Discounting 74o because of the preflop/flop action (although it's well within Player B's repertoire from *any position*, he 3x'd flopped straights in two previous situations), and sets of 666/555/333 due to the fact that no one pops SB donkbet (not a safe flop to slowplay), is there a more profitable line that affords smallish risk without shutting down the action OTF?

I figured the pot size, at $140 and change by the time action reaches Hero, was sufficient to just take it down there, but it seems with four other players in the hand that there may be a more optimal variation.

Then again, this could just be standard NH w/ever, in which case this thread will die a quick, painless death

I'd probably bet 100-120 and jam every turn. an overpair will call 80-100 more. really anything but folding is completely fine though.

also, ppl at 1/2 don't really consider bet sizes in relative terms to the pot. i think most 1/2 players consider raise sizes against the most recent round of betting.

True, which is why I think shoves get more folds than pot bets even if that size = more or less the same as a shove relative to opponent's stacks. I shoved for the meta-game fear of "shoving zomg nuts", but also for the instant live player reaction that I must be semi-bluffing 44/77 and call me light with an overpair (esp. from Player A, whose opening range EP was basically JJ+, AK).

I don't like the combination of PF action and flop action. If you're calling that large a raise with small SCs, it's because you want to flop big and stack someone. You flop big (but vulnerable, granted) and now you want to just take down the pot?

As an aside, I don't know if my player pool is different, or if the "players don't consider bet size in relation to pot" thing is being over-hyped a bit, but where I play they aren't that clueless. They may not size bets properly, but they realize that 18 into a 70 pot is very small, and would recognize that 50 is more 'standard'.

I'd fold PF. Effective stacks are not high enough. As played, I'd be looking for action from OESDs, so... I don't know, raise to 150?

I don't see what we get from raising to 150 that we don't get from going all in? Half the players are all in if they call that raise anyway.

I like the shove. We hit a hand but it's in a vulnerable spot against over pairs and draws. Flatting against four opponents means that a lot of turn cards become scare cards. Yes, we usually call raises with connectors to get a stack, but picking up 60-70BB when we don't flop the nuts is good.

Fold pre with barely anyone that much over 100bb. As played, nh. I wouldn't do anything differently on the flop.

Preflop seems a touch loose to me due to effective stack sizes (12x, 12x and 16x), typically wouldn't we want bigger stacks here? Plus a couple of the opponents don't sound like they are going to get stacked easy. Although this might be made up due to the fact we'll be in a multiway pot plus have great position. I probably also call preflop but wouldn't argue with anyone that calls this a leak.

I think I also ship the flop due to pot size and remaining stack sizes. There's some scare cards that we don't want to come off (7, 4, 3, 2). I kinda get the feeling there's not too many worse hands that call us (overpair which puts us on a draw? pair + draw?), and with this many callers in front of us (wtf, 4 people think this is an ok flop, this doesn't seem typical to me) there's certainly a possibility someone is slowplaying a monster. Because our bet looks like such an overbet, there's a chance we get looked up.

GcluelessNLnoobG

+1

I especially find that flop bets are typically sized fairly decently; sometimes turn/river bets are more lol (i.e. "same bet").

Thanks for the responses, I'm going to take a look at tightening my preflop range based on eff stacks...though, even at 80bb eff stacks getting 4:1 immediate, 5:1 w/SB call, and more like [10:1]+ implied on the call, the consensus is to muck sc's OTB?

Results were that everyone folded. I shoved OK with taking it down there, but hoping someone would stack off w/ an overpair - like the superLAG (77+, maybe 44, was pretty sure Player A laid down QQ+).

Raising the turn is bad because anything worthwhile will commit all the callers regardless; just shove.

Fold preflop not enough implied odds for a hand that can flop only 1 nuts or hit a hard nuts. If it was 55 I'd call getting ~15:1. You need ~25:1 for these hands.

As played just raise the flop dont overjam. When you overjam only hands that beat you call. Raising might get someone to still commit a worst hand like 63s. One problem you face is that with top 2 weak pair you are very vulnerable and have few outs when beaten 1 in 6 to improve. Thats why you need the big implied odds. To flop a straight I think is <2%.

Pairs flop a set 11.8% (10x than a straight and 5x more than 2 pair) and are a much stronger hand even ver 74 in this case. So if someone has a draw someone has the str8 and you have a set and all 3 get all in you are getting the right % to call to hit a boat.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 15.613% 15.13% 00.49% 439501 14215.50 { 65s }
Hand 1: 76.152% 69.37% 06.79% 2015651 197388.50 { 74s, 74o }
Hand 2: 08.235% 01.17% 07.07% 34008 205316.83 { 76s, 76o }

If you compare the above with your 2 pair vs a pair + draw and a made str8 that gets all in your equity is 1/2 of what a set is.

The other problem is with the shorter stacks if you raise this flop and someone goes all in you cant fold because you are commited. I would rather have 55 here with a draw to the NUTS than 65.

this was my reasoning , as well.