Every time I play live cash there seems to be those fish with 10-20 bb stacks. The rare times folded around to, should we be shoving fairly wide bvb vs these players, keeping in mind that the avg player grinding these stacks are super nitty as well as assuming they don't understand that we wouldn't do it with the absolute top of our range?

This has come up for me maybe 5 times in the past few weeks, and I've pretty much shoved, KTs,QJs, 66 stuff like that (which is obviously +EV but optimal..?)for up to ~$35ish at $1/2 as opposed to raise folding assuming that we're almost never getting 3bet shoved on light considering the villains. Is this correct...? And if so, what's the general bottom of our range we should be shoving here?

Sounds to me like you're talking about scared money...nits buying in well under the table limits I am assuming? More often than not, a manuever like this generally works, unless they are lucky enough to look down at a pair, suitted ace, big slick. That being said, they only gotta catch you once. Certainly feel free to raise em up a majority of the time.

why not allow yourself to play perfectly against this guy? you raise to $15 ... if he shoves you fold. if he folds, you win. if he calls, you play poker.

Because raising to $15 and folding to a <$40 shove is terrible and raising to $6-8 encourages a flat by a huge range while we're OOP

misread OP ... thought the stacks were slightly deeper SS.

Are you playing in a game where they don't let you chop the blinds? That was the first thing I thought when I read that.

If you actually care about the answer to this question, it has been totally solved and the solution is in NLHT&P (as well as other places probably). The short answer is you should be shoving much wider than you think you should be. I don't remember the long answer because I never use this kind of short stack theory.

Can't chop blinds at the cas I play at.

I obviously care about the answer hence me posting the question. I understand that shoving a really wide range is unexploitable/solved, but I was just wondering specifically at LLSNL whether people have had more success/consider it more +EV to raise fold kinda marginal hands vs an unknown with this SS taking into account how often a shortstacker will really flat pre?

$3 gonna $3

If you play this person long enough, shoving is extremely exploitable and -EV. That said, it is rare enough to go BvB in LLSNL and if you aren't doing this with ATC, you'll not play long enough for anyone to catch on.

My suggestion is to get SNG Wizard and fool around with it. It doesn't take long to get good at figuring out what hands you should be shoving with.

Just learn a decent push fold sng strat from one table sngs and apply it here. People with 20-30 bb stacks are just gamblers and fish u have to learn to exploit them

You can also use the Sklansky Chubukov rankings.. a little bit wide (as they don't actually see your hand)...and shove..to them...

the strategy is explained to some degree in NLHT&P....

Given your shoving from the button and there are two say with 30 stacks...that's means you treat it as one 60 stack....(as a base point)...as they don't see your hand the SC rankings assume you would make a profit if they did...we us 50 stack or above....

Thats quite a bit widder...kjo+ kts+ A4o+ a2s+ 33+



Note QJs is 49 stack size...to be profitable...

If you just wanted to be unexploitable..that would be 60 or above..33+ a3s+ kts+ kqo+ a7o


You generally would perfer another line with hands that play well post flop (as you stated the bettor hands)...the best hands to move all in are the ones with showdown value but play badly post flop like A3s type hands..

Shoving an unexploitable range should net you a lot less than taking other better lines if you are in any way decent because your villains will almost all suck. Sure, they'll probably fold too much to your shoved but your EV gain is still pretty small.