Okay, so what’s your estimate on Vs opening range. List the hands I guess?

Please take into account that OP stated V is playing open or fold. So he has no limping range. That means any hands not included in your opening range are going to be folds by V.

I don’t know how to play GTO even approximately. But by definition, if a player did play perfect GTO, there’d be no way you could crush them. That’s the definition of an unexploitable strategy.

A pocket pair is twice is likely to hit a set as KJo is going to hit two pair or better. I'll also point out that David Sklansky was thinking about winning money, not winning pots when he discussed RIO hands. I'd re-read the Theory of Poker to refresh your memory on the properties of those hands.

Therefore 99 has better equity realisation than KJo. I don't see what this has to do with reverse implied odds.

River is just a check.

Reverse implied odds is the opposite of implied odds - meaning if you hit your hand, your opponent might hit a better hand. For example, if you call pre with KJo heads up, flop a king or a jack, and call down 3 streets, you're often dominated by AK/AJ.

Yeah my point was that it applies to every single hand that is not the nuts (eg 99 on a low board). So I don’t see much reason to single out KJo. Makes more sense to say that KJo realises less equity because of the lack of suitedness etc.

The lack of suitedness isn't that much higher of an EV when we're HU and when we flat 99 pre vs flatting KJo pre, they're not the same at all with respect to RIO. Yeah, we can flop a set and lose to a higher set, but when we hit a 9 otf we're usually good as opposed to flopping a king or a jack which is a RIO situation.

How about when we flop an overpair with 99?

If I was in a state of mind to voluntarily double straddle, I highly doubt that I'd find the preflop fold, which I believe to be the play. But if it was a table agreement thing, then I put my $20 in grudgingly and it's a quick fold.

I admit I don't find enough thin value bets, but this river bet doesn't work for me. Hoping to be called by worse 2 pair, correct? Do those really outnumber any A or 9? I like check-call small better.

We can be in a RIO spot with any hand post flop, even AA, so what's your point - 99 isn't considered an RIO hand when calling a raise pre like KJ.

What’s the threshold raise size where you would consider calling with KJo to be better than folding it? Facing a min-raise from the CO you still prefer folding KJo to calling?

A min-raise when, pre? The decision to 3bet or call pre has absolutely nothing to do with the villains raise size.

Are you saying it doesn’t matter if villain makes it 2BB or 20BB when you decide wether to call or 3bet, no matter what hand you hold?

Yes that’s what I mean. So in this HH if Villain opens to $40 rather than $60, you are saying it shouldn’t affect Hero’s 3bet/call/fold ranges. So KJo is still just a fold because it’s a RIO hand?

I'm typically 3betting KJ pre vs a pfr, unless the original raiser is very narrow or tight where I would fold.

I suspected that was going to be your answer, which is why I am curious about your comparison between call and fold. Based on your recent posts I assume you do have a calling range in the BB against an MP/EP open. I think you said you prefer to call small-to-mid pocket pairs and suited Aces? Correct me if I’m wrong.

So just assume the CO opener is relatively tight but not extremely tight. Maybe he’s opening stuff like all suited broadways, AJ+,KQ, all Axs, and 66+.

I assume you wouldn’t want to 3bet KJo against that sort of range, especially deep, because KJo doesn’t play well OOP if he decides to call your 3bet.

My question is then if that’s the CO range (fix it within this discussion), would there be some category of hand (like offsuit broadways), where you’d fold to a 3x open but call to a 2x open? You’re saying, if I understand correctly, KJo would just always be a fold independent of the size of the open. You’re only ever calling with suited aces and small-mid pps, no matter the open size.

What if the card room allowed 1.5x opens when there’s a double straddle. So you double straddle to $20, CO opens to $30 and it’s $10 for you to call into an eventual pot of $77. You would still fold, right?

What I am getting at with these contrived scenarios is whether you’re taking pot odds into consideration when making a decision? Or have you just classified some group of hands as “RIO hands” and you’re folding them no matter the price?

What is going on in this thread….. K and J are still the ones with the pictures on them right? Pre is a standard (albeit marginal) defend vs the CO 3x, could make a tight fold if you think he has a skill edge on you. imo it is better as a pure call rather than mixing in 3b. Also obv the open size is important to our bb strat generally…

Rest of the hand was wp too, OP

Poker is not anywhere near dead yet, thankfully, it's confirmed itt which is a really good sign there will always be tons of money to make out there.

Assuming I'm at least semi deep, whether or not I decide to 3bet someone preflop is based on their range, how they react to 3bets, and position, not their bet size unless I have a tell where they always bet premium hands 10 to 20x (as opposed to 5x), then of course I would fold KJ. I really don't like to call, I either 3 bet or I fold, unless I'm in a meta game against someone or a group of good players (which is rare anyway), when I know I can outplay them postflop or I have a hand that plays well multiway.

Edit: I don't raise with ATC, so of course my hand range is different for each situation.

Condescension and smugness off the charts with this one.


You’re right that the decision whether to 3bet a hand does not depend on the players sizing. Just the players range and where your hand fits against that range.


But the decision on whether a hand is a profitable call most definitely DOES depend on the cost to call and its relation to the pot. Pot odds are a real thing and they matter a lot when constructing calling ranges. It’s conceivable that some hand is a profitable call facing a 2x raise but not a profitable call facing a 3x raise (then it becomes a 3bet or fold hand).

I get that you don’t like to call in the BB against an open. But AFAIK every training site on the market advocates for having a calling range heads-up in the BB. This is true for both live and online play, both MTTs and live cash. Run It Once, Upswing, CLP, Jonathon Little’s site… all advocate for having a calling range in the BB facing an open. You should see how wide some of the calling ranges are for MTTs facing a 2.2x open with an ante in play…you’d be shocked. Of course the range changes depending on the open size because the pot odds being offered depend on the open size. This isn’t controversial stuff.

What you are describing is pretty much the tried and true way of beating live low stakes. However, this approach is not optimal. One doesn't have to play optimal poker or anywhere close to it in order to beat live low stakes.

Just because someone has a different opinion or approach to the game than you doesn't really confirm that "poker is not anywhere near dead yet."

llsnl is for beginners, they shouldn't flat KJ here just to see a flop. Of course there are games where I would flat, but the hand gets much more complex.

My comments were made in regard to the context provided by OP. The game as described by OP is a juicy 2/5 game with lots of straddles. It can be treated as a 2/5/10 with the occasional 20 straddle. This isn’t a low stakes hand history. I play regularly in a similar game in my hometown, so I am speaking about what works well in my personal experience. Differences of opinion are allowed.

So against a minraise from the SB you always fold or 3bet the BB?

You may have a difference of opinion, which is fine, but it doesn't mean KJo is a calling hand pre. It's not, you should generally be raising or folding it, not flatting, especially when you're OOP. You block some hands like AK, KK and JJ. Just because the table is splashy, right now we're up against a snug guy playing "pretty legitimate". That's what we need to take into consideration while deciding our action, not that the table in general is juicy. I prefer just to toss the hand away instead of 3betting to 150/200 to a snug guy, and I certainly don't wanna flat and find myself in no man's land post flop.

Every hand and situation is unique, so there's really no cookie cutter method to these types of spots, but I'm sure there would be some spots where I would flat but this hand isn't one of them.

This is 100% factually incorrect as a general principle.

If you play 6-handed 10-20 in Vegas, where the competition is tough, probably comparable to 25NL or 50NL online, every good pro is using a variation of the same opening range charts and calling/3bet charts. Same charts used by online players. KJo is a nearly a pure call in the BB facing a standard-sized RFI from LJ-BTN. It’s never a fold, and very rarely a 3bet.