What kind of stats would you guys say a solid live TAG has?? What about a solid lag? And I'm not just talking about at loose passive games but as an AVERAGE in the long term. There probably one or two people at any given table that MIGHT be considered a true tag or lag that its hard to determine their vpip/PFR when typical villains play something like 70/5/2. And with so much limping and ridiculous loose calls live, we can't play something like 22/18/5 like online because our raises get called too often

What's the practical purpose of this topic?

I'm trying to compare the best live players to typical online regs. Obviously with online, stats can be found anywhere but with the huge differences between live and issues with sample size AND the fact that many people argue raise or fold pre live whereas others argue overlimping is good, I'd just thought I'd get opinions from others.

Nobody will have an accurate range. You will have to rely on live players creating custom ranges.

18/10

25/12

Good numbers for an optimal tag and lag live.

Numbers like

15/12

22/18 are not optimal.

I expect a live crusher to adjust vpip based on condition of the game.

For example, if table has a calling station fish sitting on 200bb, a live crusher would adjust vpip to as high as possible to create opportunities to take advantage of the fish.

So the basis of this topic is almost impossible to quantify and doesn't seem to have a very practical usage.

I feel like you are trying to incorporate online with live play. Your topic has no quantifiable answer based on the simple fact that there is no way to track this long term live. I feel that being a solid tag live would require tons of patients and picking your spots to show bluffs etc. Being a solid TAG would require the ability to sole read and have a great feel for players weaknesses and strength etc.

There is no magic VPIP equation for live play and there is no correct way to answer your question. When playing live you will run into some of the most random players ever any were from super whales to the over the top nits that raise to 30 bb with AA and KK only pre flop. It is just way to broad of a subject there just isn't a simple answer for it.

Mine is probably around 25/20/5. Another 2+2er played at my table and said it was like 26/17 but that was only over about 40 hands.

Lies

Speaking for myself, my VPIP and PFR is completely dependent on table dynamics.

There are some sessions where I am a super nit just playing premiums, and then there are some sessions where I am limp/calling 64s+, 65s+, T9+, J9+, 22+ from all positions

If I were to give you a default, vpip/pfr/3-bet it would be 20/10/5

but once I get the table dialed in, then it changes.

In the live game, I don't think of my play in terms of vpip/pfr/3-bet but rather I like to think of my play in terms of styles.

I've noticed that my most profitable sessions usually involve me being 50% super nit, 40%-45% TAG, 5% LAG, 1%-5% super LAG/Maniac.

i've found that formula just makes me an absolute beast at the table. But again, that changes as a function of table dynamics and I wouldn't even begin to know how to equate that in terms of vpip/pfr/3-bet

sorry can't be of more help to you

DGiH basically nails it with saying that it depends on the table conditions.

In a super weak passive fishfest limpfest, a 60/20 may be perfect. In a routine tougher game with 4 regs and 4 weak players, then 22/18 may be more suitable. As in most situations with poker, it all depends. The higher the skill level in poker, the more dynamic the answers to situations are, as opposed to so many static chart type answers given in most poker books.

Logic 101

By definition, being a tag/lag means being aggressive.

Being aggressive means raising and not being passive (calling)

Playing a 25/12 means you're raising less than half the pots you enter and taking the passive route over half the time.

Thus, playing a 25/12 is not tag or lag regardless of whether it is optimal.

I've been keeping track of every hand I vpip for the past 18 months. I'm at 14/13/5 and I vary between lag and tag depending on the game.

obviously vpip/pfr is dependant on the table dynamics.

but looking at your stats, I'm wondering if you are not extracting max value from aggros and ego maniacs that would hang themselves if you gave them enough rope and took a more passive line against them.

on the flip side, aggression is important... but i'm just saying, there are some times where a passive line is best. And with your stats, I'm not sure if you are realizing those times in which being passive can/will net you more money.

Just food for thought.

Solid players live definitely have much higher vpip than online because their opponents are worse and they can play a wider range profitably.

I'd say something like 30/20, maybe more in some games.

Live is too passive you can play looser tag/lag






I say I agree with sol. 14/13 lol.

Being able to play marginal hands (especially in position) as well as other implied odd hands like 22-77, Ax suited, etc out of position makes a huge difference in winrate, especially when stacks are deep and against players who overplay overpairs or TPTK in large pots.

This throws your VPIP/PFR/3bet way off, but more your VPIP than the other two. I would think something like 30/12/5 would be way more normal and more profitable than 14/13.

OP asked what a solid live tag or lag stat line would look like. Considering I have a large sample size (for live) and a large winrate, I offered what mine does look like.

There shouldn't be an argument about what is or isn't optimal because that's not what was asked. It's especially true when everyone's games that they play in are different (my 2/5 typically shifts between loose passive and tight passive). Aggros in my game are few and far between, so the numbers you guys suggest are barely feasible, let alone optimal, but I'll take the advice given with those caveats in mind.