5/5 game in the city. The game is being played 8 handed.

The CO picks my brain often on what I think of his play, how he can improve and so forth. A nice guy who is learning the game. That said, he does not usually spew to badly and plays quite controlled. He is definitely aware that I am me and what I may be capable of, ie. there may be some meta involved in so far as he knows I know what I'm doing.

The BTN is a very good player. On the LAG side for sure and he has a big stack right now too so I suspect his button play requirements may be non existent right about now. We talk poker constantly and know each others game very very well.

I have just sat down no more than 30min ago. I have yet to show down but have dragged a few pots. The BTN knows I probably 'c-bet' less than most but I don't think the CO knows this (though I'm not sure how much weight can be put on knowing this anyhow).

CO: $550
BTN: $3300
HJ (me): $750

One limper to me and I make it $25 to go with 87from the HJ. The CO and BTN calland the limper folds.

($90) Flop comes 852

I check, the CO bets $60, the BTN calls, I raise to $225...

Thoughts on the line. Please offer reasons why you do or don't like it. I will offer my thoughts in a bit...

What's your plan for various actions after you?

My thoughts on the hand: I like the flop check -- OOP vs. two players, one of whom is somewhat solid and the other of whom is a very good loose player betting this flop is basically a bluff (solid guy isn't likely to call with worse, BTN is probably going to apply pressure often enough to make you very uncomfortable).

Once CO leads out I figure he has a piece of the board -- it's probably better than yours but not total air. The BTN calls which I assume he can do with a pretty wide range, so the situation seems good for a c/r squeeze. The CO will be hard-pressed to continue with the hand, and the BTN's range is so wide that he should fold often enough for the play to be profitable. The size you chose is big enough that they should both expect you to be committed, but not so big that give yourself a bad price to take down the pot.

This is assuming you're going to fold to a shove from either Villain, right?

I'm undecided on whether I like/dislike the play, but I definitely think the play is reasonable at any rate.

First, let's do some hand analysis. When you check the flop, the CO bet does not necessarily indicate great strength, but you said that he was a solid player who doesn't spew much, so let's give him credit for A5s, A8s, 76s, T8s, 98s, 78s, 68s, 22-TT.

When the BTN calls the CO's flop bet, he can have a wider range here, but he can also be slowplaying the top of his range too (slowplayed sets, 2pairs, and small overpairs are possible).

I definitely do not like the CR here because you are over-representing your hand and turning TPWK into a bluff. Your hand has some value, and I believe that you should play it more straightforwardly to extract the most value. If you are up against a medium strength hand that has you dominated or a monster that has you drawing almost dead, then you will have bloated the pot immensely OOP with TPWK.

If you are trying to CR bluff someone off a A8 or 99-TT, then I think that you shouldn't waste TPWK for that purpose. You would be better off doing this with a whiffed AK that has probably just as many outs or more against range of A8, 99-TT.

The main reason that I hate the CR bluff here is that you leave yourself vulnerable to becoming trapped. If either CO or BTN has 2pair or a set, they will probably flat call your CR and then take you to valuetown on the turn/river. If either CO or BTN has A8 or 99-TT, you will quite possibly be facing a flop call or your CR to see what you do on the turn. You might be able to push someone of A8, 99-TT on the turn with a shove, but if you get looked up, you will be drawing thin to 3-5 outs.

"It depends."

Mainly, the merit of this c/r is determined by the likelihood of taking the pot down right there. Surely you're not trying to build a big pot out of position with TPWK.

Judging only from your descriptions, it sounds like there's an excellent chance that CO will fold. Howevr, if BTN is the "very good" thinking LAG you say he is, then your plan is much less likely to work and all you're really doing is building a huge pot out of position with a modest hand against a good loose, aggressive player. . . .

In the scenario you describe, against these exact opponents out of position, I'm more inclined to bet anywhere from $50 - $75 and play poker from there.

Out of curiosity, since I live in NY and have played many NYC/outer borough poker clubs (1/2 and 2/5 etc), why make this move? This is a fairly small pot and people play bad enough at these places that you can simply play ABC and crush. In many of these clubs, your FE here is not high enough to make this good.

That being said - the move is admirable, but you are in stack-size hell if you get flat called, and this will give you little info. Getting shoved on sucks, b/c you can't call, so the entire move is based on folding them out and taking down two dead $60's plus preflop. Probably doesn't happen often enough.

Proofrock- Real good post. Much of that was my thinking among other things. And yes I was folding to raise instantly.

dchan- I think you are right on with your prospective ranges and how they adjust/fluctuate as the hand develops. As for why I made this play my intentions were not to overplay this hand for value but rather to use it as a bluff to be more profitable in the long run (as I see it atleast).

Clorox- Yes, my point was to win the pot right there. I felt the longer this hand played out the less EV I had. I have spoken about this concept before of taking a less EV play on one street in order to avoid an even less EV play later in the hand (most don't agree with it though )

2outs- If I got called or raised I was done with the hand. So I felt stack sizes were not as big a factor since remaining stacks would not come into play. I did think though that my raise shows pot commitment for most people though so that should only add to my FE (as proofrock mentioned).

All- Yes I am turning my hand into a bluff here. As for the argument of 'wasting a top pair hand' or 'would rather have a busted AK' or something similar, I am making this decision to c/r because of the board and my opponents. The fact that I hit top pair here did not change the fact that I felt c/r'ng was the most profitable line to take in this hand against these opponents.

I think if I would have played this hand in a straight up fashion and bet $50-80 I would either get blown off the hand or floated by atleast one player and been lost on the turn/river. And being lost on those streets with a fattening pot is just no fun. So ironically, by building a big pot I avoid bloating one...

By the way, I don't think this hand has much showdown value -- if you had JJ or something then I could see doing what you can to get to showdown in a medium-sized pot, but 87 here doesn't actually have that much value, IMO.

I mean, it's not like you're going to get a ton of action from worse hands, and being OOP in a 3-way pot makes it nearly impossible to play this pot to showdown on terms you dictate.

I think it's a pretty awesome play. If you cbet, as you said, BTN just raises you off your hand anyway, now or later. Almost every possible turn card is a scare card, so just take it down now. If you get called or raised, that is not the worst thing in the world; give up and chalk it up to advertising.

I want to add that as mentioned in the OP, I had been at this table for ~30min or so. This affected my decision (somewhat) to make this play so as not to set a precedent that my checks are representative of giving up on the pot. As said, I tend to c-bet less then most and it is important for that part of my game to not get exploited.

Also thanks Wreck for being the only one who liked the play

A few more reasons why I don't like this c/r:
1) You're giving your opponents an opportunity to play perfectly. There's a high likelihood of being called by anything better than our hand, and a high likelihood of folding out everything worse. Meanwhile, we could be making a big mistake. Plays that could be mistakes (in the Sklansky sense) that also allow our opponents to make perfect decisions are generally to be avoided.
2) We're playing afraid. I find that people make these big moves on the early streets because they're afraid of playing the turn and the river. If you watch excellent NL players, they're figuring out ways to extract value with hands like TPWK. They can do this because they're very good at making correct decisions on later streets. Showing down TPWK on the river and extracting thin value is one of the things that separates good players from great players. In this instance, we don't know yet whether we're ahead or behind, but 45BB is a very expensive price to find out.
3) Our range is unbalanced towards a bluff or weak pair. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't see many people play sets and over pairs this way in live MSNL. It looks like OP is afraid to show down his hand, and a "very good LAG player" will pick up on this.
Contrast this with a c/c or leading out on the flop. . . there are lots of hands that play this way that OP could have, especially if it's known that OP "c-bets less than most."

It's an interesting play for sure, but I really don't like it. Your hand has value here and you are definitely not extracting maximum value from your opponents. Also, the point clorox made about your range being weighted towards a bluff or weak pair is very valid. I don't really see you playing a set like this and a smart thinking player can see right through this line and push you off this hand. You've said that the button is such a player.

I like betting this flop a lot more, then check/calling turn and river for pot control or to get extra bets from bluffs. Obv you can fold as well if you're facing too much heat or you get a read.

Rereading clorox's post, he pretty much nails it. You shouldn't play this hand scared - if you wanna institute some pot control, that's fine and I think bet flop check turn bet river line gives your hand maximum value and adds deception.

Also, what's the button calling here with? That's a pretty dry board and you have an 8 in your hand...

A lot of thoughts has been said already (positions, excellent squeeze, image and earlier history, you have a lot of FE against BTN who might have a lot of air getting tricky here), but I like to clear something to everyone:

I think this hand has absolutely no showdown-value IF you call here. Even if you have the best hand now, it's very unlikely that your TPWK can survive the next streets against two players OOP and you will be easily pushed away from the pot.

Also if the other player is compotent lag, he might push you off on a next card since the flop is extremely dry.

For that reason I like your move here. However simple c-betting and playing poker against BTN and going for more careful route if CO calls might be a better "standard" line to take (typically).

Oh yeah, fold pf :P

A few comments for Clorox, WBN, and others,

- I don't necessarily agree that this goes against the fundamental theorem of poker. Making better hands fold is certainly not out of the question. Thus they do not play perfectly. Also, if continuing on with the hand will make me make mistakes later on (and most likely costlier) than technically I am adhering to this principle. It is not far fetched to believe I can easily get both valuetowned and/or bluffed off the best hand here quite often. The players are smart, the stacks are large enough, and my hand is mediocre. A recipe for disaster when OOP against the both...

- I will play a set, 2pair, and overpairs like this as well. Not always but definitely a % of the time to insure balance within both my checking range and check/raising range.

- This move is not a 'scared' play but quite the contrary. In my view, I am maximizing on this hand. Just because I prefer to not go past this flop does not mean my play is scared. I just think in this spot with 2 active aggressive players (well one definitely and one who is capable of it but on a slightly smaller scale), the play will be taken way from me all too often to think that playing through the turn/river will be more profitable....if profitable at all.

- I think you overestimate how often I will reach showdown here with this hand. Yes it is nice to extract thin value from mediocre holdings but this spot just isn't one of them. I have too much going against me. Swap my position with either player and my outlook may change. Here I just think the battle is too far uphill.

Edit to add- I just want to add that if the action had gone differently after my check, ie. CO checks and BTN bets or CO bets and BTN folds, I most likely play the hand differently.

I understand that this hand has very high reverse implied odds, and I think yours is an appropriate line to take when OOP against two smart opponents with a hand like top pair on the right textured board. The problem is this is not such a board and this feels like you're forcing a move here.

You may take this line with two pair on some more coordinated boards, but come on are you really going to represent 85/82/52 here on this board after you raised pre? That's the problem with the set/two pair rep, the board is sooo dry that you're not really going to play your strong hands with this line. Your opponents, as you said before, are smart players. They know you aren't going to play a set like this unless you are a complete ****** or are trying to do some level 3 crazy **** on them.

On this type of board with a preflop raise and a decent enough hand, I just hate doing this here. I am a player that extremely often strays from the standard line, but this is just not the right spot to do so. I guess you could rep AA played funky here but that's about it. It looks a lot like air or a straight draw to me if I'm in one of the other seats.

If you're worried about the sd value of your hand, that's pretty reasonable and it's going to be tough to call a 3barrel from your opponent OOP. If you think that's what's going to happen, you can just play the hand standard and fold when you get heat. They're not going to float you enough with air for you not to show a profit with the standard line in the long run.

Also I think dchan brings up a really good point in that you really don't want to turn your hand into a bluff simply because it is too strong to improve. Having two overs to this board would be way more advantageous since you have more disguised outs and if you hit an 8 here you might not necessarily get paid so you really have 3 gin outs as compared to six with two overs.

Just my two cents man, you bring up valid points in your defense for sure and I like how you're thinking outside the box but I just don't agree with your line in this particular spot and think there are better ways to play this hand.

Oh, and if this is live at the 5/5 at the bike, these players have no fold button anyway

I disagree with a lot of your reasons here.

I would agree with this if I thought EVERY worse hand folds and EVERY better hand calls. I do think every worse hand folds, but there are definitely some better hands that will fold. That just means this is a bluff, not a bad play.

Besides, in an FTOP sense if either Villain could see our cards he should actually shove a lot, considering that we will be forced to fold -- thus, if *any* hand folds it's not playing perfectly, because if they could see our cards the perfect play would be to jam us out of the pot with all worse hands. When they fold they've made an FTOP mistake (and we profit).

What? This play doesn't mean we're afraid. OOP in a 3-way pot w/TPWK it's not going to be easy to get to showdown with the best hand if any significant money goes into the pot at all, and it's not going to be easy to control the action. Position is so important in this game, and this is one of the reasons why.

Just because we have a marginal TPWK hand doesn't mean we'll extract max value from it by getting to showdown. Making this play we're not risking 45BB to "find out where we're at." We're actually making a good decision based on hand distributions right now. Given the action, it's likely CO has a decent, non-monster hand (because the board is dry and we have a blocker to one of the sets he could have flopped), and BTN's range is wide. By checking we got information about our opponents' ranges, and given that info we think there's a good chance we can take the pot down now. There's 42BB in there, so we're risking 45BB to win 42BB, which only needs to work a tad more than 50% of the time to be profitable.

Honestly, I don't care how good your decisions are later in the hand, being OOP is such a huge disadvantage here that check-calling is a losing play vs. the described opponents in this situation. It's tougher to determine if just cbetting from the outset is better in a vacuum than checking the flop, but once the flop gets checked (as it should some % of the time anyway) c/r is much better than c/c, IMO, and I also think it's better than c/f.

I simply do not agree with this at all. In fact, I'd say the opposite -- it's almost never a weak pair, it's either a big hand (QQ+, 2pair+ for value) or a bluff (but most of those hands will either cb or c/f). If our c/r is polarized, it's more heavily weighted toward strong hands than towards bluffs.

Or OP is setting up a turn shove to get the money in as fast as possible. One thing, though -- after putting in nearly 1/3 of his stack, it looks like he's committed to the hand, so any player who plans to continue with this pot is going to be required to back that decision with his stack.

Just because we could c/c the flop with a wide range doesn't mean that's the best way to play our hand. Our hand is extremely vulnerable here, and also quite marginal -- even vs. 2 completely random hands we only win 54% of the time on this board. Once we give up the initiative we give up any chance of winning this pot without a showdown. Being OOP severely cuts down on our ability to dictate the size of the pot and to go for thin value on later streets. There are basically no cards we want to see on the turn except a 7 or 8. We won't feel happy check/calling another bet on the turn UI, and definitely not another on the river (allowing our opponents to apply pressure when they want and to play pot control when they want -- there aren't many worse hands than ours that will want to just check it down with us).

Besides, CO doesn't have a random hand -- given that he led the flop, his hand most likely is ahead of ours. In fact, given that CO bets and BTN called I think we're hovering around 22-28% equity in the pot -- definitely not enough to make a c/c profitable.

Leading the flop is another matter, but here are some of the likely outcomes:

We bet, get called in one or more spots, usually c/f most turns (occasionally 2nd barreling or check/calling) -- it depends on a lot of factors and the EV when we get called is hard to quantify, but being OOP for the rest of the hand puts us at a huge disadvantage.

We bet, get raised by CO and fold (bad).

We bet, get called by CO and raised by BTN -- now we probably fold again, even though BTN could be squeezing our hand isn't strong enough to jam for value and too weak to profitably call down (bad).

We bet, everybody folds -- this is pretty much the only result we like.

So what's the point in leading the flop if the result we're hoping for is that everybody folds?

This is true, but that is not the end of it.

You still have to protect what has a very good shot of being the best hand currently.

If you suspect someone is drawing to beat you, and you also know they will never call a bet unless they have you beat, you should usually bet anyway, because you have to charge them for their draw. When you're oop, and your hand is not that great to begin with, your opponent has his legit draw, + his draw to outplay you if scare cards come, which in this situation is pretty much always going to happen.

+ agree with everything Proofrock said. Awesome post.

Whoa, I'm actually starting to think that c/r is the best play here due to table dynamics, awful reverse implied odds and positions. I must do this when I get the opportunity.

A+ thread.

First off, I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. You all put some time and effort into your thinking and subsequent responses and I think it made for a fantastic thread. I wish all threads carried the quality of discussion that this one did.

As for the hand, The CO thought for a few minutes and then finally folded. I think if there was no one left to act behind him he may have called (gotta love squeezing). The BTN tanked for a bit too before finally folding. The CO later told me he had A8h and the BTN said he had J8s. The case freakin 8 hits the flop as top card. How unlikely...

I am never one to be results oriented and this hand is no different. If I would have been played back at, I still think the play was a good one. I do appreciate differing points of view though and do not discount their validity. This is not a play I pull off with high frequency either. Most often I take the conventional line which works out well enough for the most part. This time the stars just seemed to line up.

I just want to reiterate that if any other players called my preflop raise, both in terms of people and my ascertaining of their skill level AND there positions, I most likely would have taken a differnt course of action. My intention with my preflop raise was obviously to have either the blinds and/or limper call and be able to play position poker with a hand capable of connecting but not having that as a priority. Once I was called in both spots behind me my motives immediately changed from feeling comfortable with initiative and position against weaker opponents to having to tread carefully OOP against 2 good players. Thus, barring any monster flop (2pair+) or big draw (in which case I would have many options including c/c), I was almost never going to want to play this hand after the flop. It is just too unprofitable I think. Hitting top pair did not change this thinking. If the flop however was something like A92 or K84 or even KJ3, I would have made a c-bet and been done with the hand. Funny how board texture can also change ones philosophy on how to go about bluffing...

Again, thanks for all that put some time and thought into their responses. I think we all are better off for your efforts.