bike had 5/10 running on tuesday or wednesday, i think it was the last day of one of their tourneys

but it is very very rare now, ever since they started spreading the 5/5 $300-1000
and even that game is dying

i agree about the commerce 5/10, too many nitty regs (a lot of limping), lots of table changing to get to the fish

small sample size, but i feel like i might make more hourly at hustler/bike 5/5 $300-1000, most live players don't understand how the game changes when you're deep

i believe latb is 5/5 $300-1000, might be wrong
that's what it was on tuesday
peter the floorman told me i should play, told him nah, i don't want to be broadcasting my play lol

ya i heard bike didnt get 5-10 running that often during the tournament that just ended pretty disappointing. pretty sure they wont get it running anytime soon but luckily we have lapc which is just amazing.

Is it just me or are there other regs that also wish this sort of thread is better off buried with no new information added and no names ever discussed?

I mean I know what my hourly is worldwide, in different formats of 5/10.. remarkably it's about the same regardless of max buyin, how loose/tight the game is, etc. But I would never post it here becase 1) I just think live sample is way too small for the ever-changing game conditions, and 2) posting a nice figure that people can admire will probably jinx me for the future..

All I can say is, $100/hr is pretty much what the top regs make. Anyone that makes more than that, more than likely the sample is not big enough, and if they're really that good they start playing 10/20 anyway. Quite frankly if anyone beats 5/10 for $60-80 that's a pretty good lifestyle.. you set your own hours, earn a nice hourly, and if you don't strive to be the best in the business that you have little pressure on you to get much better so it's a nice life. Don't feel that just because you are making $70/hr and some dude is crushing at $90-100 that you are inferior... because it's all about life happiness in the end. For the same reason, if you are the type that doesn't want to stress/swings, I know a couple of guys that crush 2/5 for $50-60 per hour and don't strive to move up to 5/10 and I don't blame them.

To put it simply.. the rank order of life happiness isn't $55/hr playing regular $1-2K pots @ 2/5 < $70-100/hr playing regular $3-4K pots @ 5/10 < $120-180/hr playing regular $6-8K pots @ 10/20. I used to think it was, but once you've tried at all of them you realize life isn't a dickswinging contest and when you find your sweet spot, whatever that is, that's where you should play.

Well said 663366. Completely agree.

expert advice IMO.

This is good advice and is all based on personal preference and personality. Some strive to be the best at whatever they do and that equals striving for the highest hourly possible. Others look to make an ok living with little stress and sacrifice hourly for less daily variance. Probably a good discussion for a separate thread.

On a side note, I started this thread a while back and am happy to see it is still going and enjoyed all the great insights that people have shared. Through my experiences over the last few years in combination with this thread I feel I have a pretty good grasp of what win rate is attainable based on the type of game. If the info was available (it's not) you could probably rank 5/10 games into a few categories (ie pro heavy, nitty, lag, huge fish playing, etc) and come up with win rates based on game type.

While obsessing over win rate shouldn't be a players main focal point, it is necessary if you're going to project profit and budget your life expenses accordingly. Having a firm grasp on my hourly helps me focus on the long-term, alleviates tilt due to short term variance, and pushes me to put in more hours regardless of how good or bad I may be running.

Rant over. Thinking of starting new thread on the PLO transition a lot of 5/10+ players have made and it's effect on the future of poker. Some interesting thoughts on what the game does to pros, fish, and the poker economy.

this

Hey, thinking of moving to LA for winter, is there any 5/10 deep stack games that run regularly that you can sit for more then 2k?

Not anymore...

Sent from my SCH-I535 using 2+2 Forums

as long as I'm making my monetary goals (i know its bad but for this thread purpose...) and honest with myself on the laziness scale, I don't care about my hourly much anymore. i rather focus on earning x $ at the end of the month whether it means I should add more hours or play less.

if both players make 100k a year, and one person has more variance but higher hourly and plays less, and another person has less variance, but plays twice a much hours, what does it even matter in the end besides knowing there is room for improving your game? not much imo

Seriously? An extra 500 or 1000 hours of free time per year means nothing to you?

I'd much rather work 1000 hours and make 100k than work 2000 hours and make 120k. Not close.

This is my last 4 years of poker, it doesn't include a few years of 1-2. It is all live poker. The 2-5 data is missing a chunk but what i could find is accurate.



Profit 2-5 $32,609
Hours 2-5 1058.66
Hourly 2-5 $30.80


Profit 5-10 $210,824
Hours 5-10 1961.8
Hourly 5-10 $107.46

Profit 10-25/25-50 $250,934
Hours 10-25/25-50 695.86
Hourly 10-25/250 $360.61


Profit 2-5/5-10plo $68,137
Hours 2-5/5-10plo 637.9
Hourly 2-5/5-10plo $106.81

Profit 10-25/25-50plo $156,616
Hours 10-25/25-50plo 307.95
Hourly 10-25/25-50plo $508.58

Profit HO $66,079.00
Hours HO 117.66
Hourly HO $561.61

Profit in NLHoldem/PLO $785,199
Hours in NLHoldem/PLO 4779.83
Hourly $164.27

Loss in Limit/Mixed games -$36,999.00
Hours in Limit/Mixed game 405
Hourly -$91.42

Total profit $748,200
Total Hours 5185

In before variance, etc.

Nice work. Thanks for sharing your numbers.

that is a huge disparity in hourly at 2/5 vs 5/10 - what gives - does your 2/5 reflect a learning curve? (ie you made most of your profit in a later chunk of hours etc?) or is the reason as you already described due to missing data you think?

edit: obviously also small sample size relative to online play say but is there more you could say on these? appreciate you posting btw.

Regarding the difference between 2-5 and 5-10 win rates

It would be impossible for the learning curve not to have an impact on my results at 2-5 because they are all from a few years ago and I've definitely gotten better since then. Figuring out how to beat each stake on your way up makes you a better player.

If i had to guess i would say missing data probably accounts for 700 hours more 2-5 than i have recorded and if i put them all in the hourly would go up about $10 or so.

I found something really interesting when i was putting the data together for my 2-5 play. When i first started out and for the first 400 hours or so my hourly was over $80 before it corrected to somewhere in the 40s by the time i got to 800 hours. Around that time is when i was starting to win at 5-10 and devoted more time to those games. I still played 2-5 but i was probably splitting my time 70/30.

My 2-5 results went south for a while and the reason is that the structure of 5-10 is 4x bigger so the adjustments i was making to my game were carrying over and causing me to play reckless and spewy. For example, in a 5-10 game with 2k stacks its usually a pretty good idea to raise any of your pairs/drawing hands if there are limpers before you because bloating the pot won' t make much of a difference with 200bb stacks. This lets you win a bigger pot when you bluff and get more value when you hit. Doing this in a 2-5 game is a mistake in most instances because there is no need to get extra money in pre to get paid off when you hit and a bloated pot will decrease your chances of winning with a bluff by a ton because stacks are only 100bb. There are a lot of other little changes that i've seen in my game and had to correct. This has caused the last few hundred hours of my play at 2-5 to come out as a small negative even though i was starting to do much better at 5-10.

Where do you play?

Be careful sharing results like this. While it can be helpful to the best regulars to know what pace the top say x% of players in live Mid-high stakes can earn I think it is bad for the game and in some senses society when an amateur or student/drop-out reads this out of context and consequently conjures up a grandiose lifestyle that they will 'do anything' to achieve.

I will leave luck/variance out of this and suggest that your results perpetuate the false reality that anyone with hard work & perseverance can make a killing playing live poker.

Of course it's somewhat selfish to discourage mediocre players from becoming better, but I am also voicing from experience that poker can be a REALLY BAD IDEA for those who have large obstacles they need to overcome before making consistent $ in poker.

Like many independent careers poker can generate wealth for the top x% of players. However it is a dangerous trap for the overwhelming majority that dedicate their life to this tough profession.

Pro poker really can consume your life unless you are very wise/balanced/experienced. I am probably missing some attributes that are secondary/tertiary like willingness to gamble, ability to hyperfocus for extended periods, separating emotions/money/reads, good non-verbal control, ability to converse in a variety of situations, etc...

Poker can drain you of happiness, young youthfulness, and your $. The opportunity cost of pursuing poker comes at a high cost when you could be pursing a career or exploring the world or going. At a certain point many marginal poker pros have probably deluded themselves into thinking they were 'stuck in poker' or that 'they were on some sick level' I have been guilty of having such archetypes of life in both my lowest lows and highest highs. In the worst cases you can lose your self-respect, ethics, mind, family or own life .

Poker is a tough way to make a living even if you're a great card player. Your poker skills will have way less relevance to non-poker careers than twoplustwo posters often imply. In some series of unfortunate events due to small live sample size (yes even lifetime) you may run so badly in a lifetime that you will lose everything you have even if you crush the volume and play A+ sessions even when buried deep in the poker void/abyss/crevice.

Even assuming fair or good luck over a poker career, poker is a zero sum game and a lot of troubling factors. Factors such as Amaya's PS monopoly, a lurking US recession, new culture of mean/antisocial pros, and anticipated periods of high inflation threaten the stability and the ease of making a living as a live pro.



I am sorry for spinning a post that is negative in nature but I think this thread and the quoted post necessitates this balanced response. This is not a personal attack or an attempt to avoid informing the interwebs of the success possible in poker as I have also posted some of my results (albeit in a different context).

It is a warning and in some sense a plea. Please don't try and become a poker pro unless you have a strong mindset, unrelenting obsession with perfection, very good BRM and the ego to drop down facing poor results, and minimal life obligations (dependents/wife/high monthly nut/etc...).

To all the strong willed TL;DRs I am playing the Devil's advocate in what seems to be a thread that pontificates an aura that pro poker is something that you can just do one day with a bit of luck and the right attitude.


Cliffs:
-Don't become a poker pro until you are printing $, have few better options, and many of the attributes that predict poker success.
-Know that that poker is 'the hard way to make an easy living' and that poker is not guaranteed to grow as your costs & commitments do or even be there when you need it the most.

P.S. I feel better now that I am relieved of this woesome burden

great post

The truth. Good for you for taking the time to write it.

this plz

(gj btw)