Hi all, got a pretty general question about live 2/5 that I hope can kick start some conversation. I play mostly 1/2 and MTTs but have taken stabs at 2/5 without much success. I feel like my 1/2 strategy is basically to play tight, flop TPTK or better, and take the fish to value town, and it's been pretty successful. At 2/5 I realize I need to be more sophisticated with semibluffs, hero calls, etc., and I've done some of that successfully, but still feel rather vague as to how to outplay the decent regs (as opposed to the fish vpipping 60% and chasing every gutshot, who are obviously beatable).

So my question is: what are some of the leaks this player pool has? And by the pool, I mean the regulars who aren't atrocious, but play frequently and don't beat the game. Playing poorly in 3 bet pots? Folding too much to check raises? Calling too much vs pot sized bets? Overvaluing top pair? Etc.

Appreciate any input!

I'd start with The Course by Ed Miller.

The first 3 rules are all for 1/2, but the next set of rules are all about 2/5.

Don't try to out play the regs, just play your same game you've been playing. You don't win in 2/5 by making hero calls and semi-bluffing just play closer to standard poker in the beginning. The only difference is there's usually a lot more chips on the table and everyone's gonna be deeper than what you're used to.

Be comfortable navigating 3bet pots.

Have a 4betting range.

Value bet less thinly

cbet a more polar range

add overbets to my repertoire

(these are my adjustments so far)

I recently moved up to 2/5 from 1/3.

I mostly avoid clashing with the regs unless I have a hand strong enough to take to war. Most 2/5 regs are pretty nitty, so I over-fold to them, especially OOP, and otherwise just look for good spots to make opportunistic plays.

As an example, a recent hand - MP raise, I call with A6s in the CO, reg on BTN calls, blinds fold, and we're three ways to a flop of AQ7tt. Flop checks through. Turn is a 6, adding a BDFD. MP checks, I bet, BTN reg calls, MP folds, and we're heads up to a river brick.

At 1/3, I'm betting that river nearly 100% of the time, for a big size, because I know a lot of 1/3 players are just showdown monkeys who will check back with all their AX, and won't be bluffing with their missed draws anywhere near often enough for me to check.

At 2/5, I checked to him, knowing he doesn't have AQ or A7, but also knowing he knows I don't have AQ or A7, and I would probably keep betting A6, so he can bet any AX for value, and bluff with all his flush draws. Sure enough, he bet, I x/r'd, and he insta-mucked. No way would he have called or raised if I bet.

You have to be very careful not to take weak or weird bluffy lines with your bluffs or face-up lines with too much of your value. You have to commit to a bluff, and be willing to let hands develop a little bit when you have value. You have to go for more thin-value bets on the river. Fewer range c-bets on flop, more range over-bets on turn.

This brings up a good point, if you've been playing 1/2 in the same room where everyone's seen you and then you suddenly play 2/5, you're gonna be played differently against from the regs who might try to push you around assuming you're just "taking a stab" or they're gonna assume you're playing tight from possibly playing above your head so they might also treat your raises with a lot more respect (especially 3bets, but that depends on if your bankrolled to play a more aggressive style).

All true.

But also, and maybe I'm off in my estimate, but it seems like 80% of the 1/3 player pool are rec-fish, maybe 20% semi-competent regs, whereas at 2/5 it's like 20% rec-fish, 40% semi-competent regs, and 40% heavy grinders.

The 1/3 pool is so full of fish and so empty of grinders that I never thought about steering clear of anyone. But at 2/5, I feel like I need to pay more attention to who's good and who isn't.

I haven't felt like any of the 2/5 regs had me pegged as an easy mark, but that may be because most dealers and a lot of the regs know me, so it probably never seemed like I was scared money shot-taking.

Also - there's stupid **** you get away with doing at 1/3 that you definitely cannot do at 2/5. I'm more focused on playing a fundamentally sound game at 2/5.

I think a key aspect of the 2/5 game more than 1/3 or 5/T is table selection. The strength of the tables have a wider range than at any other stake. Theres simply no reason to play any substantial number of hands at a table with all regs, yet ill see it all the time, a table with 5 pros and 3 regs. If you dont like your table, table change, or move down in stakes.

As for everyone saying to keep playing your game, i dont exactly agree. To me the 1/3 winners stick out like sore thumbs at 2/5, i can always spot them and abuse their abc tendancies. They dont know how to deal with aggression, such as getting 3 bet or getting their cbet constantly raised,or getting floated or doublebarreled.


Im not saying everyone at 2/5 does this, but I think that there is an ABC game that plays much better at 1/3 than 2/5, and what ill tell you is that the far more aggressive style that wins at 2/5 beats up the 1/3 player pool as well. So if you do want to expand your game, it certainly can be practiced at 1/3 as well. If you arent even semi bluffing much less actual bluffing, im sure youll do OK at 1/3 but youll certainly feel out of your depth.


https://youtu.be/Pt_pINeoAi4?si=AUuGT9BBgDnKjPrA

This video sort of explains the issue with never bluffing. The failure to bluff makes your cheking range too weak and vulnerable to aggression. The craziest part is about 9:30 into this video. Basically in laymans terms, if a player doesnt know how to double barrel, you can float their cbet with almost your entire range. He caused a gtobot to cbet at correct frequencies and nodelocked it so it bluffs the turn 6% less often. In response GTO went from folding the flop 33% to folding 2% basically entirely because it could bluff so often on the turn checks.

My point being that if you dont learn some aggression, certain villians are going to absolutely eat you up. Youll still be able to make money, but i got a feeling itll annoy you.

Tomark makes a lot of good points, more directly addressing the OP than my response.

I'll vouch that if your 1/2 or 1/3 game is just tight is right, fit or fold, and value heavy, you'll get eaten alive at 2/5.

Before moving up to 2/5, it makes sense to develop your game tool set more at lower stakes.

I'll add that the difference in many ways is incremental, not binary. Like, we don't need to worry about balance very much at 1/3, but it's not like we have to always be perfectly balanced at 2/5. We just need to avoid being too face up / ABC by not having enough balance.

I recently made a hero call when a very good 2/5 opponent took an odd line against me, flat calling my LP raise in SB pre multi-way, donk leading flop on AJTtt, and barreling off turn and river (huge), when the flush draw bricked. At 1/3, pure fold. Against 80% of the 2/5 pool, pure fold. I beat no value, only busted flush draws and 1P + ISSD turned into bluffs. But the top 20% of 2/5 grinders can find those weak-value bluffs, whereas the vast majority of the low stakes player pool can't.

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Bum hunt

You really cannot lump all 2/5 players into one category. I think it helps to get an idea of what GTO ranges. Even better if you can study some postflop spots.

In general, most recreational players are not going to bluff enough or 3bet/4bet light enough. They are not bluffing enough when shown strength. They do bluff or overstab at pots when checked to or when you checked back the previous street. A lot of their bets in those spots tend to be weaker pairs though, so sometimes it is not a good idea to float with hands like A high. Recs call too much with a weak range preflop, unless they are nits who just call/limp with AKs.

Regs/pros come in all shapes and sizes and you just have to observe them. Some are over-aggressive, always cbetting, barreling turns a lot, not giving up enough bluffs. A lot of them are just tight and tend to have it. Bet, bet, bet is a value heavy line. River overbets are value heavy. Raise turn, overbet/jam river is very underbluffed.

Some players overfold to flop cbets. Other players call a lot of turns and fold a lot of double barrels when you size up (especially overbet). Bet flop, check turn, bet river gets called a ton, and sometimes it can be better than bet flop, bet turn, check back river for hands that you can only go for two streets of value with.

Another tidbit I would "chip" in... my 1/3 plays quite deep especially on friday/saturday. Min stack usually 600$. While the pool is still 80% fish. This makes it MORE profitable than 2/5 in $ terms and in BB terms imo.

Not an argument against what you're saying...

Thought about this a fair bit since moving up to 2/5 from 1/3, where all the local games tend to play bigger on weekends.

The most objective way to know which game is more profitable would be to play both enough to have a relevant sample size, keep records, and measure results. If we're not doing that (and I admit I'm not), then we're left with debating reasonable assumptions and judging our own experience.

My general assumptions and experience suggest playing a good 2/5 game is (obviously?) going to profit more than playing a good 1/3 game, but good 2/5 games are harder to find than good 1/3 games. That said, bad 1/3 games are more common than good 1/3 games, and even a good 1/3 game can often result in higher variance than a good 2/5 game.

In fact I'd think what makes a 1/3 game good is the same thing that makes it high variance - lots of action from loose rec-fish.

I think the reason 1/3 has higher variance than 2/5 is that there are more bad players who can simply run way above EV at 1/3, leading to good players running way below EV. Whereas at 2/5, there are more good players and fewer bad players, so the effect of bad players running good is dampened.

If we're running good with low variance, we're more likely to go up in stakes, because more money. But when we're running bad, we may not retreat to lower stakes, because we remember the higher variance. It takes a longer downswing and a bigger hit to our bankroll to force us to go down in stakes.

Personally I've found it's more enjoyable for me to mostly play in "normal" 2/5 games than to play in "wild" 1/3 games, if only because playing normal 2/5 feels like playing poker, and playing wild 1/3 feels like gambling.