bunky - here's something crazy. Both players can make +ev decisions at the same time on a given hand. At this point its +ev for us to get his money in regardless of when it goes in (as long as he isn't getting it in after he hits).

I think you're missing the point with the shove flop move. if we are resigned to SB getting his money in either way, what is the downside for waiting on a blank turn? if anything it gives us the advantage of seeing what he decides to do. I'm not saying a shove is wrong, I'm saying there's an inherent advantage to seeing a turn card. blank? shove. spade? evaluate villains' action and play accordingly. if we have the advantage of position and controlling when the money goes in, I would choose to flat the flop.

you sure vill will call on blank turn.?


Additionally, let's say any spade comes on the turn. vill bets $200, what do you do? Vill shoves, what do you do? Vill checks, what do you do?

Q/9/7 comes on turn and vill shoves - what do you do?

you're setting yourself up to make difficult decisions on later streets in bloated pots. Sometimes "calling and reevaluating" is not a good line to take. This is one of them.

your point is solid and well taken about difficult decisions. if SB had us covered, then i agree to get it in ASAP. but with a villain who we have assigned as a poor player and ready to G it up, i think that flatting the flop and shoving a blank turn is > giving him proper odds to draw OTF. also, i think that if he indeed is so poor as to flat call his one-pair type hands here (QJ, KJ, J9, J7, KT, QT, T9, T7 - which i don't think makes up a large part of his range, but so be it), then a shove on the flop gives him room to find a fold. so let's say a Q/9/7 or hits the turn and villain shoves into the dry side pot (which as a bluff is somewhat unlikely from hero's description) - our cost is $315 to win $895, or 2.8-1. that's not a call imo.

now, if he doesn't call the turn, fine. there's already a huge pot out there and we're almost certainly ahead of shorty's range. i guess my point is - being invested for $185 on the flop doesn't mean we should ship another $315 in without a thought because "ZOMG WE HAVE TRIPS LET'S SHOVE"

IMV, every time you incorrectly fold when a flops, you are making an IRREVERSIBLE MISTAKE. It's just not worth it, shove OTF.

i didn't say to insta-muck when a hits the turn. OP claims V would likely bet a stack of $100 if he hits his draw. with this info calling his $100 on a turn is okay and gives us great odds to re-draw. but flatting the flop for another $85 i think is acceptable in this case since we're fairly certain SB is going to get his money in at some point. getting the rest in on a blank turn gives him less than desirable odds to hit, and is a +EV move.

Geez why are you so scared of flush draws... You're like that live player that bets 2X pot on the flop if it has two of a suit and says something about "gotta protect against flush draws".... The only times I call are when I'm drawing to a flush ... With my set

So is shoving OTF.

What if V shoves on a turn?

hold up - at what point did i say i was 'scared' of his draw? because i think you guys are really overlooking my basic point. i'm not scared of his draw coming in, but if i'm putting my money in the pot and tripling my pot commitment, i want to do it when V is not getting the right price. shoving the flop does not achieve this. as for trying to paint me as a 2X pot bettor, well i'm not quite sure where you're trying to go with that.

i'm pretty much done with explaining this line over and over. i understand it's somewhat nitty and the shovetards will not think about it from a different perspective, so i guess we can disagree.

please re-read the thread. i addressed my plan for this already.

Turn 4c
SB checks, I shove SB calls

River brick
I say "set of 8's good right"?

Shorty mucked AJ face up. SB said something in Chinese and mucked face down.

i didnt read any of the responses but the reasons for betting the flop should be to induce a raise so you can shove. you got what you wanted so now shove. theres also a ton of bad turn cards that will kill your action

Even w/o doing any math it should be common sense that getting MORE money in with the best hand should be +EV.