getting back to NL, forgive me if this is a no brainer.

2/5
9 handed
100 bb eff


i open AT 3x utg, utg+2 min 3bets. one caller

3way to flop 16.5bb ($82) T62

check, u2 bets pot, fold, back to me...

pot is 33bb ($164) and i have 95bb ($475) behind.

void of reads and with an spr of 3, am i committed here?

SPR is more like 6. Calculating an SPR in the middle of a round when action is unequal makes little sense.

Not committed but depending on reads, may decide to be. What do you think that min 3! range is?

Multiway it's dubious to check the flop unless you read that as usually a big pair.

why is that? not only am i closing the action if i call, but his bet is now included in what i am eligible to win.

take an extreme example with a $1 pot. if i'm facing a $100 bet and we have 100$ stacks, the spr can't be 100, it has to be an spr of 1. if he bet's $1 the spr is 50.

this is my understanding, please correct me if / where i am wrong. What could i missing multiway?

If you are referring to hypothetical turn SPR after you call the flop, then it's less than 2. Turn pot will be $240: $80 in the middle plus bet plus call. Effective stack will be just under $400.

SPR is most useful on the flop. Turn SPR can be helpful too but you can't really compare flop SPRs to turn SPRs for general rules of thumb; each needs a different calibration for interpretation.

Fold to the min 3 bet preflop readless. This is usually AA with a smattering of KK. As such, fold to the bet on the flop. A pot sized bet on the flop means they want you to fold any FD you have (which you don't).

A10 is a terrible hand to call a reraise with, because of its potential to make the second best hand--and its SOOOOTEDness adds relatively little here. On the flop, you may have done exactly that--made the second best hand, with little chance for improvement.

I mean, you can try to precisely calculate just how bad your situation is, with all sorts of sophisticated metrics and acronyms and such, but you don't need to. This is basically a question of whether you want to commit your stack with a pair of tens. Let it go. You don't need any fancy calculations (which would be GIGO anyway) to figure that out.

Absent any specific read it's best to assume the min 3 bet is a big pair. ATs doesn't play well against that and should be folded preflop.

Your calculation isn't wrong. It's the logic in applying it that doesn't work. The logic of when SPR commits you to the pot is before any action in the round. Once villain bets the logic changes. In this case villain may be c-betting but he may not and if he isn't he is never folding. So your lower SPR doesn't mean you are more committed then before villain bet.

Axs can play just fine against a "big pair" for 2 bb with 95 left in stacks and a postflop skill advantage.

The problem is someone playing semi rationally isn't doing this with any big pair. No one like that is min3! KK. They're either marking themselves with exactly AA or they're goofing around just building a pot because it's fun.

At the table you have lots of clues as to which. Here OP didn't tell us so we assume it's AA and can fold.

I think for 100bb call isn’t terrible as V could easily play AK/AQss this way. Certainly a lot of over pairs as well. Folding is probably the move but I don’t think a shrug call is terrible depending on V, reads, game flow, etc....

Call.

Folding to a min 3bet with ATs isnt good. That being said I'm folding the flop vs psb. We're getting almost 6:1 on a call pre with a lot of implied odds (he has a strong hand that will put money in when we hit) the danger in calling comes from not being able to fold marginal hands on the flop. If we're calling the 3bet and never continuing without a monster it's a good call

Oh he bet 80? yeah fold.

I'm ok with raising basically any suited ace UTG, but this is pretty much a worst case scenario for such a hand. No initiative, OOP, and all we do is beat a bluff which on this board would just be complete total air, and if we put V on total air that means we have to commit but we're really just guessing. I'm ok with this actually being a x/f on the flop, because if we do suspect V is min3betting for value then our implied odds are 100% because he has no idea what he's doing and therefore he'll commit.

As played, we tried to get cute, he may have been cuter, ggwpfu and fold.

thank you everyone for your input so far. it is much appreciated.

range:

in my experience a min raise pre is someone who wants to say something but not build it, perhaps like a blocker 3b scaring away 4bs or just looking for an opportunity to reopen the action with a big pair. i still give him 77+, ajo+, jts+. these are low stakes and people get fishy.

pre:

i wholeheartedly disagree with folding pre. i don't think you can fold any reasonable holding for a min raise pre (a min raise, not 2x the previous bet), esp in this situation where you're closing the action and getting like 6:1. i think that would be far too exploitable and weak.

post:

i think there's something to be said for evaluating the situation with spr when the action is closing on me, hu, OTF. even if this is not how spr is traditionally calculated, there's 33bb in the pot currently and villain has around 80bb effective.

i'm not a fan of putting 1/3 of my stack in and evaluating turn, seeing what he does. I really feel it's shove or fold here. how often do u rate him to have ako, aqs+?

if he was strong, why would he want to fold out flush draws and lower pairs while the pot is relatively small? Wouldn't he rather lay a more reasonable bad price to continue? I feel the larger sizing encourages us toward continuing.

i feel this should be simpler. we're not super deep, 80 eff.

Board: 6h2hTs
Equity Win Tie
MP2 44.31% 44.31% 0.00% { KK+, AQs+, AKo }
MP3 55.69% 55.69% 0.00% { AdTd }

That's well enough, but the way you're trying to calculate SPR makes no sense and is completely useless in reference to any literature on SPR. You're just taking a snapshot of the hand with unequal action, doing a quotient, and pretending it's meaningful. 33 bets in the pot counts the bet but not your hypothetical call. No. Just no. It's meaningless to call that quotient SPR.

ANYTHING MEANINGFUL REFERRED TO AS SPR REQUIRES THE BETS TO BE EQUALIZED. Period. (Really that should be at the beginning of a round, or at least hypothetically about what will happen at the beginning of the next round conditional upon your action.)

So yes, it makes sense to say, "If I call, the turn SPR is under 2. So I think I'm close to commitment." Turn SPRs aren't comparable to flop SPRs, but at least they can be compared across hands.

You absolutely cannot count his bet in the pot but not your call and expect anything meaningful to result.

Imagine you're in $1-3, $300 eff, 3 way limped pot ($10; let's ignore rake). You flop top pair. Big blind shoves for $297.

You can call that an SPR of $307/$297 = 1.03 if you're stubborn enough to do so. Then you can reason, "Well, an SPR of 1 is pretty close to automatic commitment with top pair, so I should call the shove." Garbage in, garbage out.

excellent, thank you for clearing that up for me.

i think this guy nailed it:

Are you guys really folding ATs to a min 3bet? We're getting 4:1 direct odds, come on. You are leveling yourselves if you are assigning him KK+ exclusively.

On the flop, assuming he is thinking about bet sizes at all, does he pot KK+ on a board dry as fk? If you are folding tptk, what is the minimum you are calling with? I can see AQ/AK, in extreme scenarios JTs/T9s as well taking the same line easilly.

Fold seems very weak and exploitable.

V's description is non-existent. Absent any read I'm going to put a 3-bet and lead into 3 people probably not a whiffed AK.

Because his logic is likely "better to win a small pot than lose a big one!"

Fish play to win pots, not stacks. If he "let you get there" he'd curse himself for weeks. They see whats in the middle and they just want to scoop now.

i feel like a fish bc that's exactly what I thought and did. I didn't want to see any turns, the min raise pre and the psb otf both seemed fishy so i went after the middle. I jammed and he open mucked AKo.

I count 7:1.