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live 1/2 QQ faces a 4bet shove pre

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12-01-2011 , 08:08 PM

typeR

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 144

hero 120BB TAG

villian 1(covers) playing for several hours maybe have seen or played a time or two before my read is tight passive

villian 2 (400BB covers all) LAG descent lots of bluffs

hero QhQd OTB

sb,bb,villian2 +2 limpers gets to villian 1 makes it 8$ folds to me ,i make it 35$,folds to villian2 who calls ...back to villian 1 who snap shoves aprox (150BB)

Hero ?

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12-01-2011 , 08:15 PM

dionysus1

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 339

fold.

tight passive shoves over your 3-bet. He has AA/KK 99% of the time. best case scenario for you he has AK and you're racing, but I doubt it. Either that or your reads are wrong.

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12-01-2011 , 08:20 PM

NastyNate362

enthusiast

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 84

Ya, QQ doesnt do well against a range of QQ/KK/AA/AK

flipping/tied 50%
****ed 50%

Fold and smile at your good luck

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12-01-2011 , 08:33 PM

Matsamuy

grinder

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 610

Yeah pretty easy (if a bit annoying) fold, unless you have significant reason to believe the LRRAI is the result of tilt/losing a big pot. Even then, you can find better spots at 1/2 NLHE

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12-01-2011 , 08:36 PM

typeR

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 144

Quote:

Originally Posted by NastyNate362

Ya, QQ doesnt do well against a range of QQ/KK/AA/AK

flipping/tied 50%
****ed 50%

Fold and smile at your good luck

so are you saying you'd rather have AK here than QQ ? and if it were KK would there still be anything to think about ? believing this isnt a tilt bet . now that i think about it having KK would seem to make it even more obvious this was AA

but still what if we did have AK isnt this an easier fold than QQ ?

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12-01-2011 , 08:51 PM

typeR

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 144

ok last question

what if villian 1 min raises to 70 $do i call with intentions of c/f the flop short of me spiking my Q ? what about villian 2 acting after me should i call a min(ish)5bet ((i know were speaking hypotheticals here... but im trying to improve ))

villian 2 smooth called my 35$ 4bet does he try to shove here ? or is he likely to just fold/call here ?

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12-01-2011 , 10:22 PM

Garick

Oberbiergenießer

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 26,659

So there's $105 already in the pot, and everyone says snap-fold for $205 more? I agree that it's a fold, but it's closer than you think.

If y'all are correct that this is AA,KK,AK, we are 40% against that range

If we call we make $310 40% of the time, for an EV of $124 and lose $205 60% of the time for an average of $123, making this a call by an EV of one hottt dollah American!

I think AA and KK are weighted more heavily than AK, and if we take out just one combo of AK, this is a fold.

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12-01-2011 , 10:32 PM

2OutsNoProb

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 15,991

I think we're folding here, it would be rather rare for someone to do this in 1/2 with a smaller PP for 120xBB effective. If shorter, different story.

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12-02-2011 , 04:09 AM

PokerIsFrustrating

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,756

Can't raelly figure out the positions in this hand.

Does anyone else 3b a little smaller here? It's probably just nitpicking because you actually got a cold call which is good regardless of V1 shipping, but I don't know if you need to bomb it so hard, especially since vs this guy we seem to be raise/folding.

We have to 3b his $8 raise, but if we're not intending to call a shove why not make it like $25? It basically achieves the same effect, might encourage a call from V1, and makes it a much easier fold when he shoves.

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12-02-2011 , 04:12 AM

#10

canoodles

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 7,025

I'm calling.

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12-02-2011 , 01:10 PM

#11

typeR

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 144

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerIsFrustrating

well im two spots to the right of the raiser so i have 6 people behind to act including the monster stack LAG player with close to 900$

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12-02-2011 , 01:13 PM

#12

typeR

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 144

BTW i shipped

V2 tanked for about 1 minute and folded

V1 shows AA and to add insult to injury spiked and ace OTF

for me as soon as i made the call while V2 was tanking i knew i had made a mistake and was up against AA for sure think about it light raise in front of V2 a good reraise from me a smooth call and a snap shove from the original raiser ...it should have been so obvious ! anything less than AA would have just called

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12-02-2011 , 01:25 PM

#13

StackedYouSon

adept

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 741

This is a spot I see I think a little too frequently on this forum. Somebody has a big hand like KK or QQ and a TAP player shoves over their 3bet... this is AA like 1000% of the time. What kind of hands does a tight passive player like to bet? Only the nuts.. makes sense here that he only has AA.

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12-02-2011 , 01:32 PM

#14

MCS

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,738

(grunch) V1 is tight-passive. He raised a couple of limpers, then got 3-bet, saw that 3-bet get called, and snap-shoved. I think his range here is pretty much KK+, I guess there is some small chance of AK or QQ, but you're not getting enough of a price if we assign only partial credit for AK and QQ.

This is completely disregarding V2, and I have no idea what he is going to do after he limps and then calls a raise to 17BB.

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12-02-2011 , 01:33 PM

#15

typeR

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 144

Quote:

Originally Posted by StackedYouSon

ya the second i made the call i was sick i knew it was AA but why i couldnt sit back and think about it for a second ... like another poster said should threw em in the middle and thanked him for playing his hand face up

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12-02-2011 , 01:48 PM

#16

monkeymaps

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,971

lol at tight passive 1/2 player showing up with AK here, esp. if hero hasn't gotten out of line at all.

this seems like a pretty easy fold IMO. his range is pretty much KK+ I know your getting a decent price but really you should be stoving a range of just those two hands.

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12-02-2011 , 02:04 PM

#17

typeR

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 144

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeymaps

this is one of my bigger leaks still ... i think ive just plugged it with yet another AA smack in the face ...live and learn right ...

just get too excited about give pocket pairs

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12-02-2011 , 03:53 PM

#18

bubonicplay

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,932

People do this with almost anything, it looks like a good spot to make a move too, don't beat yourself up over calling or folding, it's one of those close spots where neither are correct , flip a coin

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12-02-2011 , 04:04 PM

#19

Tom Dwans Son

banned

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 4,003

With QQ this is a standard fold. What about KK? Is this a fold with cowboys as well?

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12-02-2011 , 06:23 PM

#20

typeR

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 144

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Dwans Son

With QQ this is a standard fold. What about KK? Is this a fold with cowboys as well?

heres ur answer

quote from vince10 in thread moderators rant :

RELATIVE STRENGTH

Many are forgetting that poker isn't based on absolute strength, but relative strength. This takes several forms. First, look at KK. It is the second strongest starting hand in poker. Only one hand beats it: AA. Against AA, your equity is 18.0%. KK crushes 65s. KK has 77.5% equity against 65s. However against AA, 65s has 22% equity. In other words, 65s is objectively a better hand to have against AA than KK, even though KK is the second strongest starting hand in poker.

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