http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...m-game-838114/

I am in MP with AK, $200 eff. stack

Preflop: UTG+1, MP+1, BTN and BB call my raise of $12 everyone else folds.

4 Players and me see the flop - KT8 the pot is $60, it gets checked to me and I bet $50 for value and get called by UTG+1 and BB, MP+1 folds and BTN folds.

3 way action to the turn and its 6, BB checks and UTG jams it in, Hero..............

No real reads on either player they have a very wide range KQ, KJ, KT is all possible hands, hands like 97 also and any two pair combo hand, maybe even some draws. BB also to left to act.

Meh, I hate these spots. You can't expect to get called in 4 spots preflop.

I think I fold because villain probably puts us on at least AK when we bet 50 into 4 people on the flop and he doesn't think we're folding that. It looks like some kind of 2 pair unless he just picked up a flush draw to go with a pair or a staight draw.

I really wouldn't fault a call but I don't feel like one pair is good here. Funny really because if villain had checked I would have advocated shoving the turn.

Definitely not a standard spot when the pot gets bloated like this.

If villain looks like an idiot I call. If he looks good I fold.

Easy fold. Everything villain jams with crushes us and the few hands you can beat don't jam.

Although villain may have a wide pf calling range here, he's probably not shoving turn with a wide range. I agree with Nogyong villain expects us to have at least TPTK and doesn't expect us to fold so he's unlikely to be bluffing. Although it is possible he turned a diamond draw to go with a SD/pair, but that is probably the worst hand u would see here. We r getting a good price on a call but i think this is a fold.

At some point I am going to have to take a stand, folding and waiting for hands is costing me to much.

I dont understand how their wide loose calling range preflop seems to outflop me post flop when I have the best starting hands, take this hand for example what type of flops do I want to see with AK, any flop that has an ace or king in it..........well I hit the type of flop I wanted but now I am forced to a decision for all my chips and I dont like it much given the player type (who is loose and passive) but even he can do this wtith KQ because he could be on tilt or bored or even think that KQ is the best hand. I hate these spots because I have a player left to act.

Also I dont understand when you guys say if it as checked to me OTT that I should ship it, doesnt that open me up to be c/r when someone does have a big hand and wants to slowplay it, knowing that I have a big King here and knowing I will bet it again if checked to. I think its a fine line between value betting and value-towning ourselves.

AK is never beaten. Just ask the two people who I felted tonight when I flopped sets against them - KK vs. AK and JJ vs. AK. ... If the opponent is any good, he probably caught a set on you.

I dont mind folding AK if I am beat and I can keeping folding all night and wait for the nuts but I wont show a profit for it.

And if hes not any good he has two pair or a straight, so good players flop sets on me and bad players turn two pair/straight on me.

Got it.

I was just trying to make the point that people overplay AK.

Are you saying that I will be overplaying my AK if I call here OTT?

I think you're way behind, yes.

Is everyone saying this is a fold?

"at some point I am going to have to make a stand".
Have you been betting out and folding tp raises often at this table?

Yes a lot. What happens is I bet the flop, get 2 callers then I am faced with a bet and call before me and the turn looks scary.

Or I am bet into on the turn with players to act behind me.

Looks like a fold to me

If those are the reads then call, from the table description it doesn't seem as close as everyone else thinks imo though its a clear cut fold at a normal 1/2 table.

This is an obvious fold.

I feel you are trying to talk yourself into a call here even when you know you shouldn't and at the same time trying to talk everyone else into agreeing with you.

You don't want to commit stacks to a pot with only top pair most of the time unless you are against a weak calling station who is letting you be the aggressor.

And to answer why you ship it if it is checked to you, yes, you can be running into the same monster who is waiting to c/r use. But the hand range of a weak opponent who would c/c here is MUCH bigger than the range of an opponent that will shove into you here. If someone picked up a a flush draw and straight draw here and checked, if they are weak they will probably call your ship and you have around a 75/25 on them. However, I think you are losing a large % of the time against the player that goes all in on you before you act.

Well, you have to pick your spots then. This seems like an ok spot to make the call, given that you have been folding to this type of action in previous hands when the board is "scary." Villain's line doesn't represent much that you're afraid of, except: 97s, Kh6h, or KT/88 that decided to make wonky slowplay.

Sometimes it is the case that your opponents are simply outflopping and outdrawing you repeatedly, and you have to recognize when you are beat, "again."

The problem is that on one hand, this keeps happening to you, yet you have "no real reads." If utg+1 just sat down, then the argument of "having to take a stand" doesn't really apply, does it?

Also, if it had been checked to you, I hope you figure out why it's ok to ship it in. (whereas if you were deeper, you would be more likely to check)

Folding... 6 is one of the ugliest cards in the deck. I can't think of too many hands you beat other than some random 67hh semi-bluff or something.

Checking back the turn against fish on a super wet board with TPTK just because you're deep is criminal. Pot control is so often incorrectly used in low stakes especially vs loose fish.

Very true.

Being deep really doesn't matter if nobody bluffs. Just bet for value when you are ahead of their range and fold when they push back.

It completed one OESD on the flop. Not the best card but considering the board not even close to the worst card. That being said I expect villain to have some 79o or some dumb two pair/set in this hand.

I mis-read the hand. Got confused half-way through my post about whether it was 2 hearts on the flop or 2 diamonds. My bad.