1/3. 9 handed. $500 max.

V1 / UTG - Mid-20's male. Not sure, but maybe Latino. Never seen him before. Seemed like a bit of a loose-passive rec-fish, playing too wide pre and too sticky post, but on an unbelievable heater, to include making quads TWICE in less than an hour. Haven't seen him bluff, but also haven't seen him do anything very aggressive for value. Sitting to hero's direct left, starting the hand around $800 eff, but doesn't stack his chips neatly, so hero isn't sure exactly how much he has.

V2 / BTN - 30'ish Asian male. Played with him once before this session. Super wide pre, especially in LP. Fairly sticky post. Super luck-box, always seeming to make some ridiculous hand on turn or river. Seems to think hero just never has a hand, and that I'm always bluffing. Never seen him bluff. He'll over-fold to check-raises, and tends to dial up the aggression as soon as he makes his hand, rather than slow-playing. Currently having a bad day. Possibly tilted. Started the hand with $455.

I've probably lost over $1k to these two V's collectively, when they show up with some marginal strength hand that most players would have folded pre or on the flop, and I either barreled into them with too-thin value, or I gave up with a bluff that might have gotten through if I just fired that last bullet (or maybe not, so I might have saved myself some money by not barreling).

Hero / BB - 50's white dude. TAG'ish, with lapses into LAG'ish. Haven't gotten out of line recently. Started the session stuck, but recently running well, getting close to even, starting this hand around $700.

OTTH...

V1 opens to $10 from UTG (a little smaller than what most people were opening, typically $12 or $15). Folds to BTN who calls. SB folds. Hero calls with 66 (suits not relevant).

FLOP ($30) - 996rb.

H x, V1 $15. BTN calls. H calls.

(Is anyone donking out here, or check-raising?)

TURN ($75) - 996 8xx (can't remember the suits, only that a BDFD comes in).

H donks $50 (yay? nay? different size?). V1 doesn't think too long before calling. BTN likewise doesn't think too long, and calls.

RIVER ($225) - 99683 (no flush completion).

H $150. V1 again doesn't tank before calling. V2 doesn't hesitate too long, then jams all in for his remaining $380. Hero almost vomits as he goes into the tank.

Hero? Anyone folding here? Anyone re-jamming?

I don't think V2 is ever bluffing here, and I was struggling to find worse value hands that would raise. Based on our previous history, I'd have expected him to raise trip 9's on flop or turn, and raise T7 on turn. I thought he might slow-play a weak 9x combo like T9 or 97 that blocked the straight draws, but wasn't sure he's thinking on that level.

I had no idea what V1 had, but didn't think he'd be opening UTG with any 9x holding, other than maybe A9s. Wasn't sure if he opens 88 or just limps in. I was mostly putting him on over-pairs that didn't know what to do when I donk bet turn, but might now fold to the BTN jam.

I've only ever folded a boat once that I can remember, and it was super-obvious that I was beat that time. But this seemed like a spot to possibly hero-fold.

Against more normal opponents, I'd be pretty sure I had V1 beat, and I could maybe make an argument for re-jamming to create a side-pot and recoup some of whatever I might be losing to V2.

Here, I wasn't sure if it was worth it against a passive V. I was thinking if I re-jam and V1 calls, I might get $250-ish from him, and this debacle will only end up costing me $210, whereas if I fold, it'll cost me $225. Or I might lose it all, and I'll want to go lay down in traffic.

I'm never ever folding here. If he's got it, he's got it and you beat enough value hands which he might consider to be the nuts. V1 never has you beat, so I wouldn’t mind a rejam, but I don't expect him to call often either way.

I wasn't sure I could ever fold. But this was really gross.

Other than T7 and trip 9's, I didn't see any value I was beating. And I figured those hands would have been heard from sooner, because of the BDFD on the turn.

Like, what sort of psycho slow plays trip 9's on flop AND turn, risking a scare card coming to kill the action, waiting until the river to raise? Wouldn't 9X want to start piling it in before then? If T7 calls flop, doesn't he want to pile it in when he hits the ISSD on the turn, when the BDFD is out there?

V's line made no sense to me, if he had worse value, especially with my earlier observations that he tended to fast play whenever he made a big hand, as soon as he made it.

Still, wasn't sure I could ever fold.

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x raise flop.

as played
I think folding for this price is not a good idea. Your bet is almost 50% of his stack. He might just ship here with A9. If he is a little deeper then you can fold obv.

Or just bet $100 and fold.

You’re bluff catching here, he’s not value raising worse, and I don’t think this spot is bluffed enough.

Calling is way better than jamming though, we don’t want him to fold if we’re ahead.

Probably check / raising the flop. AP: OTR not folding, and not jamming.

Understand why you didn't, but not raising flop with both Vs "fairly sticky post" doesn't sound good. As we soon see, we hate any 9, 8, T, A coming off. Maybe more. They're not folding a 9, so why not make them pay? They will fold a lot of things that would call reasonable bets on flop and turn, true.

I'm not donking turn and I'm frankly hating life. 98s maybe isn't getting opened by V1 on a heater, but 98o absolutely is in V2's range. Still, we can't get too MUBSy. I think you're beating V1, for instance.

AP, we need a hair over 20%. Maybe less if we think V1 calls. I can't fold (sorry Beluga), but I think we lose far, far more than we win.

So its only 230 more? Never folding for that, I'd just call. Ive been surprised to see people that I thought I had pegged show up with unexpected hands like massively overplayed trips here plenty of times.

I think I want to check raise flop vs people that probably wont sense danger and fold their trips.

Yeah, as soon as I saw the 8 on the turn, I regretted not fast playing the flop. And yes, I was thinking exactly what you said, V2 could have every combo of 98.

I think I have a common leak, in that I sometimes act too quickly in situations that seem very straightforward, without stopping to think about deviating with an exploitative line. On flop I was thinking (wrongly, probably) that I didn't want to over-play my hand and lose value if they both fold. I should have realized that UTG wouldn't fold anything he raised pre to a single bet on an otherwise dry board, and BTN would only fold hands that would likely also fold to a UTG c-bet. Maybe BTN folds if I x/r, but in hindsight I don't think either of them folds if I just donk out on the flop.

For some reason in game I kept thinking about prior hands when I saw either of them show up with hands like T7o and call down with 2nd or 3rd pair. I wasn't positive UTG wasn't opening wide, but I was positive that BTN would be calling very wide. Sort of a weird spot where I thought either of them could show up with something unexpected that either had me beat or that they might over-value.

How would you play the turn? Just check-call? My thinking was that I made a mistake not fast playing the flop, and I didn't want to compound that mistake by letting the turn check through. I realized I'd hate every over-card on the river, but wasn't really thinking it through, to the extent that I don't think over-pairs are folding turn, unless I bet huge. I guess I was trying to get value and protection but not scare anyone away with too big a bet, which is obviously self contradictory.

I definitely thought I was beat when BTN raised. I'd have insta-called if the BDFD came in on the river, or the turn or river was a 5, bringing in 87. It just seemed really odd to me that BTN would wait until the river to suddenly blast off, rather than trying to get more money in on earlier streets. Unless he had 99, he'd hate over-cards as much as I would.

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I was thinking this could be massively over-played trips. Then I thought BTN might realize I could defend the BB wide, and that I could have T7, or 98, or A9, 88, or 66.

I knew he had me pegged as a bluffer, but it would be weird for me to donk-bluff for 2/3 pot into two opponents on the turn, and then barrel for 2/3 pot on the river when they both called. And if he thought I was capable of that, he can just call, rather than effectively turning a strong value hand into a bluff.

So, yeah, I was kind of confused on the river.

My previous observation of BTN was that he over-folded to x/r's when we were heads up. I figured he'd be even more likely to fold in a multi-way pot. Not that I thought he'd fold trips, but I thought he'd fold out a lot of hands I'd want to keep in. In hindsight I realize I made my life more difficult by not defining their ranges more on the flop, leading to being in the blender on the river.

I didn't have any observations of UTG vs a x/r, but I figured the population is likely to respect a x/r from the BB, multi-way, and over-fold hands like AK. I should have realized he might not understand, since he was obviously a rec-fish, and that he might get stubborn with AK, and all his over-pairs.

I dunno. If I fast played the flop, I might have hated the turn even more. As played, I figured their ranges were wide enough to not get too worried about combos of 98, which was why I donked out. On the turn, I could see BTN showing up with T7, 77 or 7x, 55, a lot of 9x, etc.

Looking back, I realize that if we're going to slow play the flop to keep opponents' ranges wide, then we probably need to call if we get raised on a later street, especially if it's the river, even when the BDFD bricks, as uncomfortable as it may be.

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If you're talking about the BTN, he raised all in on the river, so he can't fold if I re-jam.

I was thinking about re-jamming to get UTG to call. I was pretty sure I had him beat.

Honestly, I was so confused by the BTN's raise, I wasn't thinking entirely straight. If I was, I might have realized I should re-jam. I'd basically be free-rolling if I had V1 beat, and even if he folds, and I lose to V2, at least I keep V2 from getting more of V1's money.

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Didn't include this in the OP, not wanting it to get even longer, and being unsure if it changes anything, but in case it helps anyone's analysis...

In our previous session, I pegged V2/BTN as being a decent reg. He was winning, taking his time with all his decisions (more on that below), and some of his hero calls seemed to border on clairvoyant.

Near the end of that session, I got fed up with his constant and excessive tanking, and told him that the next time he tanked for more than 10-20 seconds, I'd call clock. To his credit, he wasn't defensive, and seemed genuinely apologetic.

This session was the complete opposite. He was bleeding chips, acting quickly (maybe because I was at the table), and clearly making bad plays.

As I was tanking on the river, I started thinking back, and began wondering if my original read was wrong. Maybe he was actually just a bad rec-fish, who needed time to think no matter how easy his decision might have seemed to a reg.

Instead of being clairvoyant, maybe he just benefited from being sticky and sitting two seats to my left when I was being too aggro. This time, he was two seats to my right, and I was playing tight, because of the loose rec-fish to my direct left.

I much prefer x/r flop than call flop last to act and then donk turn, even on this turn. It does look kind of weird though and that might be interpreted as bluffy or something like 87 that has a pair now.


After you get two calls on turn, river kind of sucks in that most of your value is coming from hero calls if you bet and at least one of them will have JT/flush draw type hands. I guess V1 can have A9 or maybe T9 that won't find a fold vs. a bet but didn't raise. You do have last action and checking seems too weak, but I'm not sure of the right size. After bet/call/raise on river I don't see how V ever has worse unless he's terrible, but one reason for that is we shouldn't be folding value hands much. Would expect V2 to have 88/98/99 all the time (if he's good) and no bluffs, but eh it's not like he shoved an extra 500.
Don't see how raising to get V1 to fold is useful to us, or how V1 ever calls enough if we reshove ... like making it obvious it's a sigh call pretending we are weak feels much better.

I'm not a huge fan of setmining just 3ways and OOP, but for this price I probably can't pass.

SPR is huge, I probably donk the flop and just hope to build a pot. Hand could easily check thru (disaster) and a check/raise might lose hands we don't want to lose. As played, I probably check/raise small.

Think I'm also donking the turn as played cuz having it check thru would be so gross.

I'm also betting the river.

I would never re-jam as this will fold out hands from UTG that we want to consider overcalling. So the decision is between calling and folding. In my experience, this is just always a boat+ for this much money on this board versus this action / sizing, and we only beat one boat, and I just don't see how that smaller boat gets there.

Having said that, the last time I folded 2nd bottom boat to big river action, after I tank/folded my opponent tells me "good fold, I had you" only to turn over bottom boat (and not comprehending he had turned it into into a bluff as no competent player is calling with worse). So that hurt.

GcluelessoverfoldingnoobG

Yea honestly, im not super confident that I find the XR flop in game because im thinking the same as you, its just so incredibly strong looking on a board like this and they might fold everything except trips. So that part of the hand I dont think is really a big deal at all.

But def not folding to the river raise. The way it played out w you donking he might very well think his trips or even more likely straight is the best hand. I think folding here would be a big mistake based on the price we're getting. I do not think hes raising bc he thinks your bluffing at all. If I was villain I might raise a straight on the river based on the way you played it bc I'd think you have trips. Depending on my in game read of course.

Sorry if I was all over the place talking about a re-jam.

My thinking wasn't that I'd be jamming in the hopes V1 would fold. My thinking was that I wanted him to call, because I figured I had him beat, and we both had V2 covered, so whatever extra amount I get from V1, above what V2 jammed, would offset what I might lose to V2 if I simply called and lost.

On the other hand, I figured if I was somehow losing to V2, and I re-jammed, and V1 folded - and as I'm typing this now, I realize how insanely stupid this is - I wouldn't care, because eff V2 if he somehow has me beat, and I don't want him getting any more money here.

In that moment, I'd rather V1 keep it, because I was salty, and figured I'd have a better chance of getting that money out of V1 than V2, which really doesn't make any sense at all, because V1 is on my left, and V2 was on my right.

Not sure if that's still too complicated. I'm pretty sure some of it is fairly stupid.

FWIW, I was so mentally in knots about V2's raise I wasn't thinking as clearly as possible. I've never been in a spot where I think I'm behind but a re-jam might still make sense. I agree that doing some fake-weak tanking probably helps convince V1 to call the re-jam.

I wasn't thinking this clearly, but in game I was vaguely trying to figure this out - if V1 is going to call off another $230 behind me, after he already called my turn bet of 2/3 pot and my river bet of 2/3 pot, would it be totally unreasonable for me to expect him to call off another $250-ish on top of the $230?

Like, if I re-jam, I think the pot will be $1380, and V1 has to call off another $575, so he'd be getting 2.4 to 1 pot odds. If he called my turn and river bets, and he's going to call off the $230, what's another $245 more? If he thinks he's got the best hand when he calls all these other bets, why wouldn't he call my re-jam?

The decision to re-jam or not is highly dependent on whether or not I had BOTH opponents beat. If I have the best hand, and I think V1 will fold to a re-jam, then I should just flat call, and hope V1 over-calls. If I have the best hand and I think V1 will call a re-jam, I should re-jam. If I'm losing to V2 but beating V1, I should re-jam and hope V1 calls. If I just flat call and I'm somehow losing to V1, I can't fold if he re-jams, and while it's doubtful he's going to fold to my re-jam, if there's any sliver of a chance he might, or any sliver of a chance I'd make a bad fold, I should just re-jam.

I didn't re-jam, basically because I came to the conclusion that it looked too strong, regardless of the pot odds V1 would be getting, not that I gave him credit for being able to realize the pot odds. Thinking about it more since then, I'm still not sure if I should have re-jammed or not.

Wait for the reveal. When you see it, you'll understand why I was thinking about a re-jam, not that the reveal is likely to settle any debate about it being a good or terrible idea in this spot.

Wait for the reveal.

Thinking about this hand more, it's become very clear I should have donked out on the flop. Checking was a big mistake.

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other about putting in the raise here, only because V1 bet 1/2 pot. If he bet 1/3, I'd have felt compelled to do so, and it would have been hard to figure out the best sizing. If he bet 2/3 pot, a x/r probably looks too strong. So V1 did me a favor betting the way he did.

That 1/2 pot sizing is also good for me in that he won't necessarily be concerned that the BTN and the BB call, the way he might have been if he bet 2/3 pot. It seemed okay to donk out on turn without fear it would look too strong.

I think donk-leading the flop would have been the best play. Check-calling or check-raising over a 1/2 pot c-bet seems debatable, and as such probably not much different in terms of EV.

EDIT - I just realized I'm contradicting my earlier posts. Check-raising flop is probably better than check-calling, but just donking out is likely best.

Your take is similar to what mine was - from V2's perspective, a lot of 9x combos or a straight probably looks like the best hand, if he thinks I'm just always FOS, but that wouldn't be a very good read, if that's what he thinks of me. I'm never bluffing here, so at worst I'm over-playing a worse value hand.

But, A) how many worse value hands could I have, if he has 9x, and B) if he flopped trips or turned a straight, why wait until the river to raise, when the turn also adds a BDFD? Why not raise flop with trips, when I could have 87 in the BB?

Not arguing against anything you're saying here. This is just what was going through my mind as I was tanking.

Agree with Illiterat (above) overall.

I think you have to call at this price. Zeebo's Theorem in action - "nobody can fold a full house at LLSNHL".

That said, I think you are beating yourself up excessively over your line. It's a cooler if he has it. I think the river bet should be a little smaller, as others have mentioned.

Thank you all for taking the time to look at this and give your thoughts.

Reveal...

Hero did NOT fold. Hero also didn't re-jam. Hero called.

I don’t realize how tilted he was but you did. Nice call, if he’s showing up with this he’s probably showing up with lots of trash and we have to call.

It would behoove your BB/hr to spend more time adjusting your future ranging of villains based on hands they've show down that they "shouldn't", and less time internally berating them for their poor play.

Thank you, sir.

Until this session, I was very confident in my live reads. It didn't even start to dawn on me how bad V2 was until days later. Suddenly little things started popping out in my memory, like how sincerely apologetic he was when I called him out for tanking in our previous session, and how bad some of his calls were in retrospect. There were other little things, too, that didn't seem to mean anything when they happened, but when put together make it clear my initial read on him was WAY off.

There was another semi-reg at my table this session, who I also previously thought was decent, but realized how bad he is after playing with him some more. I may have gotten used to giving opponents too much credit while playing 2/5 the last six months, and need to re-adjust to 1/3 until I move back up.

That's fair. Already thinking along those exact lines after this past session, per my reply to OD, above.

Oh, it's Zeebo's, not Baluga's? TI(re-)L... Thanks!

For me, with what I perceive as Doc's image from his posts, I don't think a C-R on flop drives these guys off. He's probably perceived as a bit laggy. Good, when H actually has it. That plus both being sticky, I think keeps 1 or 2 in. I think someone bets this, with Vs as described. Guy on heater is probably concerned about a 9, or might even have A9s.

Donking an ordinary c-bet size doesn't help us either, as they're sticky. Probably have the same amount of $ on flop if H bets first and they call vs they bet and H calls. C-raising flop gets the most money in while we have the best of it, IMHO.

Turn, either c/c or, as played, donking, but going smaller. I want to get to showdown for a med pot, not for stacks, vs this V and the 6 possible combos of 98 and 3 more of 88 now sitting out there. (Plus 99, lol) If v2 rips over us, probably folding. Which seems nitty as hell, but doubt V2's raising just because they picked up a BDFD. And 98 is in H's range too (though maybe not all the 98o), which raising V would have to suspect, and just doesn't care.

At this river, if I've c-r flop, donked turn, and they're still here, I don't want to check and maybe induce a shove I shouldn't call, needing much more than 20% in this case, but I still have a boat, and so b/f something like 1/3---if that doesn't make calling a V2 shove trivial---sounds good.

AP, calling, not shoving.

Edit: Just read the reveal...lol. No, I don't know how he gets there with 33 either. You did say they were sticky post, OMG. AA is a bit more understandable.
So, back to 2/5 with you.