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02-24-2024 , 06:39 PM
V1 (700) LAG (BTN) straddles 10. V2 (400) so so player likes to try to “outplay” but very leaky (SB) completes. BB completes. Hero (covers)(UTG+1) raises to 60 with A♣️Q♥️.

BTN calls. SB calls. BB folds.

Flop ($190) 7♥️2♥️2♦️

SB checks. H bets 75. BTN folds. SB calls.

Turn ($340) 7♥️2♥️2♦️K♠️

SB checks. hero Shoves (265 eff)
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02-24-2024 , 08:51 PM
PRE - sizing seems okay. Wouldn't hate a tad larger, but don't hate the 60 either.

FLOP - prefer to check multi-way between an opponent in front and an opponent behind. Let's see what they do before we decide what we want to do. If we c-bet here, probably go a tad smaller, like $60-ish again, or even maybe a little lower.

TURN - So...we're putting V on a flush draw, 7x, or maybe 44, 55, 66, or 88, or some random two-overs combo, and we're repping Kx?

I dunno. Can't see him having too many flush draws here that didn't raise pre and don't have a K in them. Seems like we're mostly trying to fold out middling pairs or just deny equity from random over-cards.

I don't hate it. It could work often enough to be a solid play. Might work better if we bet smaller on the flop, giving him worse odds to call a turn jam. But that's nitpicking.
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02-24-2024 , 08:59 PM
Cool stab. It strikes me as kind of difficult to represent Kx here because of the relative rarity of flop cbets as mentioned above. Ranges to complete straddle is an interesting subject that I don't see discussed often.
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02-25-2024 , 02:48 AM
Flop is close. If SPR were significantly bigger, then it's a clear cbet. Unfortunately, SPR is very shallow in this case, so this is not an obvious cbet.

As played, turn shove is great. Good job on pulling the trigger on a mandatory double barrel.
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02-25-2024 , 06:53 AM
I like it. Pretty much exactly how I would've played it.
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02-25-2024 , 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blargh257
Cool stab. It strikes me as kind of difficult to represent Kx here because of the relative rarity of flop cbets as mentioned above. Ranges to complete straddle is an interesting subject that I don't see discussed often.
I have a TAG image. I felt I could get more credit for AK/AA or even TT-QQ realistically shoving for value knowing V has few kings.

He has been known to float cbets, even OOP. Felt 2x was unlikely.
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02-25-2024 , 01:18 PM
As played, looks good. With a queen, there is partial removal to the most likely KX combo playing a raised pot.

Flop - with a 40bbs caller, I like Xing flop, which we would at some frequency with KK+/AKs. If Cbetting, smaller ... $50-55.

If SB X/R, would you have folded flop?
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02-25-2024 , 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by samo
As played, looks good. With a queen, there is partial removal to the most likely KX combo playing a raised pot.

Flop - with a 40bbs caller, I like Xing flop, which we would at some frequency with KK+/AKs. If Cbetting, smaller ... $50-55.

If SB X/R, would you have folded flop?
Good question. In game, I was thinking that my cbet will often take it down but I was mainly b/f and planning to barrel some turns if called. I think his c/r range would be 2x (few combos), 7x, small pocket pairs, and FDs. I’m doing quite poorly against that range.

Last edited by fatmanonguitar; 02-25-2024 at 01:37 PM.
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02-25-2024 , 03:12 PM
Flop I would probably go smaller or check. Default sizing being 25% pot fore me so 45-50.

With AQ we have the best hand sometimes, so betting flop for thin vakue and protection doesn't seem awful. A heart in our hand makes it even nicer.

Quarter pot on flop and getting called by one caller gives you a pot sized bet behind and I like the options that gives us. If we don't spike an ace or queen on the turn, we can check turn to realize our equity and evaluate river. If checked to on river unimproved, we might ship it depending on the runout. A heart would be a nice scare card. Maybe even the K on the turn us enough, but we know better if V will fold if we check the turn and he checks to us on the flop.

You're kind of saying you have AK, KQ, or AA on the turn, or maybe just TT-JJ that decided to go with it because it's kind of hard for V to have a K as played. I'm inclined more to jam our flush draws on the turn as bluffs than a hand like AQo with heart.

Any history giving us an idea what V's limp call range looks like from SB with button straddle? And any idea how wide he floats the flop? Because some players are playing pretty strong hands as limp calls here and others it is more trash. We probably want to jam some flush draws on the turn and check back other ones to realize our equity. It may depend on villain's range and what we think he will do with it which ones we prefer to jam. Like, if V can show up with 55, msybe we prefer not to have A5s on the turn when jamming. If he can have TT and we think he would go with it on the turn, maybe we like ATs (also might block KhTh). We can also use some randomization. I would just hate to never have a king beat when we check turn and never have a flush on the river after checking turn.

If we think v just overcalls flops and the overfolds turns, jamming turn with our hand can be fine. If you make this play too often and get caught, you develop a bluffy aggressive image and get called more often though.

So my verdict is it depends.
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02-25-2024 , 04:01 PM
V is decent post flop but too loose pre. I think he would limp overcall with speculative hands he should be folding from SB esp at this stack depth. He would likely not let button straddle impact his opening range.

I agree with smaller cbet 3-way on a paired board and prob check or bet smaller if pair on board is a little bigger and more likely to hit Vs ranges. I sized up a bit to prevent a call and an overcall or to prevent inducing a raise.

V thought a few seconds and mucked to my turn shove.
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02-25-2024 , 05:33 PM
You can rep a king pretty well with this line. Also 88-QQ could do this. Seems good.
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02-26-2024 , 06:49 AM
Also looks good to me. What are people's thoughts on sizing up flop?
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02-26-2024 , 08:05 AM
As others have said, flop cbet is a tad too big.

In this specific case (board and stacks size), shoving turn looks pretty cool.

In general though, I am not a fan of big-ish bluffs with very small equity when called.
Moreover, against a V who likes floating c-bets, you are bluffing with the best hand a decent amount of times, imo.
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02-26-2024 , 12:41 PM
I like it. I'm fine with the flop bet, but I don't like the down bets that seem to be so popular.
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02-26-2024 , 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moxterite
Also looks good to me. What are people's thoughts on sizing up flop?
Personally I always go half pot on these flops. All my over pairs and bluffs want a larger sizing. Small bet doesn't make sense to me unless I have Aces or Kings.
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02-26-2024 , 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
I like it. I'm fine with the flop bet, but I don't like the down bets that seem to be so popular.
Personally I think people are misapplying the down bet on boards like these and a lot of others. And boards where they should bet small they bet big.
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02-26-2024 , 01:43 PM
I like it. only 95 more than a halfpot bet but way more effective. low likelihood of a slowplay
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02-26-2024 , 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic
Personally I think people are misapplying the down bet on boards like these and a lot of others. And boards where they should bet small they bet big.
My reasoning for sizing down if we c-bet is that we're multi-way and sandwiched between the BTN and the SB on a low-middling two-tone flop that doesn't seem to favor our UTG+1 opening range in a BTN-straddled pot, with a hand that isn't drawing to the nuts or blocking any value other than A2cc and A7cc.

Unlikely BTN is going to fold his flush draws or any 7x to a 1/3 pot bet. SB is just going to x/r with any 2x, or flat-call with his flush draws and 7x, unless BTN raises. BTN is going to raise 2x, and flat call with all his 7x and draws.

C-betting 1/3 pot or more on flop isn't likely to fold out 88-JJ, and is reducing the stack sizes, giving our potential turn over-bet/jam less fold equity against those hands.

I'd rather just check flop to c-bet turn, or c-bet flop small and evaluate. If we check or bet small, we'll have more stack depth available to apply max pressure on a favorable turn card.
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02-26-2024 , 02:30 PM
I would bet 50 pre but that's just me. Stacks are on the shallow side, and it would help to set up a turn jam which would be closer to pot or above which will get a lot of hands to fold to the king.

I don't really consider this a down bet, since we bet 60 pre than 75 otf but I've def seen a lot worse. I've seen players 3bet to 105 pre than bet 40 otf with value hands which I never understood. There are def. times to down bet but it shouldn't be an auto go-to strategy imho.
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02-26-2024 , 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
I don't really consider this a down bet,
I don't think anybody does, but some were advocating for smaller.
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02-26-2024 , 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niemand
As others have said, flop cbet is a tad too big.

In this specific case (board and stacks size), shoving turn looks pretty cool.

In general though, I am not a fan of big-ish bluffs with very small equity when called.
Moreover, against a V who likes floating c-bets, you are bluffing with the best hand a decent amount of times, imo.
I general I don’t either. But bluffing with the best hand is not always terrible if you deny some equity to live cards and avoid inducing a polarized bet from V OTR.
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