Thanks again for the help on Limping Strategy Earlier in the other thread.
My next question for you is what range do we complete the SB with when the table limps?
I see a couple people fold limped pots from the SB where I play and I wonder if they are doing better than me long term here?
What range is good to complete SB vs 4-1,5-1,6-1 etc?
I may be splitting hairs here but theres no such thing when your goal is to play perfect.

Thanks again.

Obv depends on table conditions, but I generally complete suited and off-suited connectors, and suited one gappers from 75 up to about QT. Better than that, I usually raise. Worse than that I dump.

Then (and this is the most important part) generally I c/f anything less than 2-p or an 8+ out draw.

This is more or less what I do, too, except I think you raise a little lighter than I, which I'm working on improving.

If I'm playing my "A" game, my completing range is a null set. If I have a better hand than everyone else, I'm raising to clear the field and collect the dead money. If I have a worse hand, it is -EV to play that hand oop.

Randomly, I'm going to hit a hand hard just as often as everyone else over time. If I hit my hand hard, it is unlikely anyone else will. I'd have to have a huge skill advantage over the field to overcome worse hands and the worst position. Therefore, only the poker room wins as it collects the rake over time.

I don't complete a lot from the SB. I don't consider myself good enough to play marginal hands from such a bad position and make money. But, from time to time, I will limp with something like suited connectors just to see what happens. But, I really don't like limping from EP. I feel it just sets me up to win a little or potentially lose a lot.

True, but the few times one does hit gin pretty much pays for the majority of the c/f's, and it does wonders for ruining you table image (i.e., making you look like just another lottery poker player) for only 1/2 of a BB an orbit.

Save your money play atc on the button

The positions people lose money at basically no matter the player are sb and bb. Nobody is +ev from the blinds, it's very near impossible to do. I'd try to play super tight from sb, and hope to not get in big pots unless I had the joint, that's my strategy anyway.

TBH, I've given up trying to look like another "lottery" player. I've had too many fish notice that I know how to cut my chips, stack them, value bet, keep my hands off the table, etc. to the point that they'll start asking me etiquette questions at the table because, "you look like you know what you're doing."

Is this an exaggeration to make a point?

I mean, you aren't raising/folding with stuff like SC and small PP right?

+1

You need fishier games. Where I play, the tables are about a third to a half regfish who know how to do all of those things (except value bet).

With 2 or more limpers I almost never complete with offsuit garbage that cant make a straight. An ace im completing. Almost all suited cards (maybe not 72s and similar hands) i always complete if there are at least 2 limpers. Same goes for any cards that can make a straight. I would guess im completing about 2/3rds of my hands. Anything that has potential to make something good. If there is only 1 limper i tighten up. Ill ditch hands like J7 and T6 as well as some other weaker holdings. If you arent a great hand reader though feel free to tighten up. Youll need to be able to get away from flushes if you play suited junk.

If there is a fish that limps along I'm completing sb with ATC hoping to hit the megafather flop.
If there is just 1-2 limpers that are decent players, or that won't stack off light I'm only completing non-trash hands (connected cards, suited high ranking cards, broadways, etc.)

I play anything connected, which I think is fine as long as you can fold OTF when u catch a piece.

This. The next time I see one of the guys at my table value bet on the river, will be the first.

No, I'm not exaggerating. As ANL has mentioned multiple times, playing on-line has the huge advantage of getting accurate statistics on how profitable hands really are in certain positions. The reality is that only at the softest tables is playing fit or fold poker oop profitable. You need the ability to steal pots with the worst hand to make playing SC and small PP profitable long term. That's hard to do OOP in a 4 way pot.

How can I get my hands on that information? I have an understanding of some online play. But that is from 2+2 and I forgot what I studied since I didn't write any notes down.

Really? So you're saying getting 12:1 or better on a call is unprofitable if I have 22? That just doesn't add up. Yes, being OOP sucks, but it seems like sets are at least profitable regardless of position when you're in a bloated pot.

This is a better strategy than the "zomg, I have to call with anything, I'm getting 12:1" reasoning most people employ, but it is a little bit nitty.

I can't fold a small pocket pair, a suited ace, or a decent suited connector getting such attractive odds. That's my completion range. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody could prove to me that the suited aces and suited connectors were a leak--they 100% certainly were losing hands online for players completing them from the sb.

Also, even when you have 87s and you are getting 11 to 1 or something, just keep in mind that:

You will flop the draws 1 in 9 times or so, and it will get there roughly 1 in 5 times you get to the river. How are we getting it to the river profitably? There isn't really a good line most of the time.

You will flop trips 1 in 100 times.

you will flop two pair 1 in 50 times.

Your 2 pair hands are, by definition, hands in which someone else could be drawing to a straight.

Your trips have a ****ty kicker and are offering RIO to most other limping hands that also flop trips.

I have a 30 minute lecture on all of this I give to players who are leaking from the small blind by completing too much; but the long and short of it is you are about 35 to 1 to actually hit a hand better than one pair, and getting 11 to 1 on that dollar you're tossing in doesn't look so hot when you look at it that way.

All of that said, you will occasionally ship a monster pot. net, it probably works out to completing being a small leak for most people.

Let's just start with the "bloated" pot idea. Suppose 7 people see the flop after everyone limps. That means the pot has 7BB in it. Now if someone raises 4BB pf and you're the only one who called, the pot will be about 9.5BB.

Which pot is more "bloated?"

As an exercise, figure out the % of possible boards on the river where top set is the nuts. Hint: of the over 20 million possible boards, you can write all of them comfortablely on one side of a piece of paper.

I don't really understand this post but could I just clarify that you are NOT suggesting folding pairs from the small blind in limped pots?

bump.

i've been thinking about this a bit lately. i play in a $1/$2 game where there are 4+ limpers typically. will some winning regs who play in games with a similar dynamic comment on their completing ranges please?

Well those are the sorts of games I play in, and I was a winning reg when I wrote the first response. On a viscous downswing right now, but it's not due to my SB completion range, and still a winner overall. Just not in the time between these posts

Sounds like you're in a sticky situation.