Do you guys have any basic criteria for limping limp/calling in loose passive games?

Is limp folding really bad? i.e. in for 2BB's or a 5BB's straddle in for a raise? (Assuming the implied odds are there)

Should we limp all pocket pairs from all positions?

Should we limp suited connectors and suited 1 gappers and if so should we stick to higher card Suited connectors like 89s+ and dump the lower ones.

How about suited broadways - raise, limp or dump?

Do we limp QXs KXs or do we only limp AXs to make nutted hands?

Let's chat

In a loose and passive game, yes you should limp all pairs although I will still folded 55 and less in the first few positions out of self preservation instinct and to not get into bad habits. Definitely fold one gappers, suited connectors are fine, they play well in loose and passive games because you won't necessarily have to pay as much to draw but you are also faced with the risk of being overflushed. Hands like 97s have little if any value multiway, you are basically just begging to get coolered limping or limp calling these hands... the have limited specific value in certain situations. Suited broadway are a lot better and can and should be raised in great situations, in position, no tight players in the pot yet. Qxs and Kxs are folds almost all the time.

I'm a big fan of limping against passive players that have very loose calling criteria pre and post flop. Why throw in a good portion of my stack with such limited information (my 2 hole cards and action) when I can see a cheap flop with a deeper relative stack against players who make lots of mistakes post and tend to stack off light.

at super passive/station tables i'll generally limp qx, kx, ax, baby pairs, and suited connectors if stacks are on the shallow side (around 100bb). in games where I'm deep and there are a few stacks sitting on 200-400bb i'm raising the qx/kx/ax and pairs since they are easy to play, but im cautious w/ low suited connectors and 22/33/44/55

I don't like limping mostly because I really don't like limp-calling.

Everyone has they're reasons for limping. It seems to be the trend on this forum. I just hate limp calling. Idk why but it just seems very weak to me. You have only one chance to win the pot. That is flopping gin.

When I first started I limp every playable hand. Small pairs, small drawing hands, suited aces and kings.

Then I ran into some tricky players. I limped 66 BB checks, flop comes K K 6. I bet all the way to the river. Got raised on the river. I shoved guy has quads. Lol

Another hand I limped K 10 of hearts. Flop comes K 10 5. I bet all the way to the river guys just smooth called. Flips over 55.

Another hand I played, I had 77, flop comes 7 5 2. I get it all in on the flop vs a thinking player. A super donkey crusher he had 5s. The rest of the night the guy told everyone about the cooler.

After all of that, I started watching film on the pros. I learned that limping is bad for a lot of reasons.

You flop gin and win a small pot.

Limp ranges are too wide. Its hard to put villains on a certain range. Untill you get to the river. By that time you already invested money. Its hard to lay down sets and 2pair type hands.

Most of the big hands in limp pots are coolers. Your either on one side or the other.

Moral of the story, limping is cool, you may win lots of money limping. But to me all money is not good money. Limp with caution.

Finally someone who plays live who thinks like I think. I hate limp calling its the worst.

You should probably reread your own post.

First of all Cali all your value with these hands come from implied odds...not pot odds.

And your examples of why not to limp are rediculous. Those are coolers..and have nothing to do with why not to limp.

So let me get this straight...in a hand where you have 80bb you hold 77 in a very aggressive game...you'd rather b/c pre giving yourself wrong odds to play and forcing yourself to play incorrectly oop.

Or you'd rather b/f pre forcing yourself out of the hand...which in reality we need to see a flop not get preflop.value....why? BC we are flipping at best and the majority of time by the river we are beat especially oop.

Point is certain situation's advocate limping...especially when all our value comes from sets straights flushes etc with these midpar hands. We need a flop with the right odds...which is respectively. 10-1 odds to call and get the right implied odds.

Also....watching pad or the big game isn't going to make you better. These guys have played with each other a million times and there is much more going on then what you watch.

In a typical scenario with 99 where I'd insta-iso-raise online (25nl) let's play it out live.

In the game I play in (200nl with a continuous 5BB straddle) if I raised 99 in LP with two limpers I will need to raise to €25 in an attempt to get heads up which is rare. Usually I will be going to the flop with 3way and villains calling ranges are anything from QQ+ to 42o.

Now when I'm holding 99 there will be overcards on the flop 79% of the time.. so 79% of the time I will be left wondering if one or both villains (who aren't in the buisness of folding) have caught a piece of the board.

If I cbet €45 into a €75 pot I'm reaching commitment thresholds and I'm not getting a fold if any part of the board has been whiffed by villains.. If the flop has an A/Q/K I'm probably toast if I get called

This is very typical and I don't really know how to deal with it to be honest so it seems that my only option is to limp and try to spike that set.

Advice? criticism?

WTF does this even mean?

Since ISO is not working here I also like a limp considering stacks. If we were 200bb+ I'd like a raise.

But it seems I advocate limping more than others.

In a loose passive game with little preflop raising (and especially with payoff monkeys), I'm usually limping all small pocket pairs from EP and open raising them the closer I get to the button (and also raising them less if those left to act after me are super loose cuz playing OOP in a bloated multi-way pot sucks). At tougher / more aggressive tables I'm dumping them in EP. Too loose / too weak?

I think I was pretty much playing suited connectors / Axs only slightly more tighter than how I was playing pocket pairs, but I'm now thinking this is a mistake as I think they have to be played much more tighter. Playing small pocket pairs postflop is pretty easy (i.e. fit/fold for the most part) but playing drawing hands OOP is a lot suckier. Also, getting paid when a drawing hand hits OOP is a lot harder to do than in position, a much bigger difference than pocket pairs flopping a set, imo (since we can usually get started getting paid off early plus hand is usually more disguised, so position ain't as terribly important with these getting paid off with these, although it certainly helps). I'm thinking I have to tighten up with these hands and basically play them in position only.

Kxs/Qxs I leave to LP play only so I can get a feel for whether I'm on the second best draw.

Suited broadway I have no idea to play and I'm probably too loose with them. If the table is tough / aggressive, I usually fold in EP. If loosey gooesy limp passive droolers I usually limp to get into pots. If tightish / straighforward I probably come in for a raise. Versus limp/foldy limpers / tightish blinds, I raise in LP; otherwise, I probably just limp along.

If I'm caught limping a marginal hand and someone takes the table by surprise and raises (i.e. so my initial read was that there was a good chance I could get away with the limp), I'm usually always folding OOP in a HU situation, unless I think I have massive implied odds with a small pocket pair. If a zillion people call a reasonable bet I probably call along as well with hands that aren't easily dominated.

Table dependent? I mean, if 90% of the time we're going to the flop unraised, then a limp would be fine (well, with small pocket pairs let's say), no?

Yeah, as with everything, it depends. I'm generalizing. But then, it was a general question.

Like seconds after making the post decrying limping and limp-calling in this thread, I posted in another where I thought OP's l/c was fine.

Depends on whether we're talking about open limping or limping behind.

Open limping is usually horrible. If you don't think you can play a particular hand as the PFR from the position you are in, then I'm fairly certain that you can't profitably play it as a limper.

Over-limping is another story. It seems fine when the following are true:
1) You will be in position for the hand, so usually from the CO or BTN
2) You hand is suited (no unsuited crap). You're going to have to hit a big hand or big draw to win, so that extra couple % is huge

Bottom line: if you can't open 6-7s or 4-4 from UTG+1, fold it. And don't over-limp from MP. You're going to get raised too often or lose the cooler war in the long run (since you're OP and don't have good control of the final pot size).

Any answer to OP's question basically comes down to a few easy factors.

a) is the table really loose passive preflop? In this case I'm all for open limping 22 UTG, cause you'll play a multiway limped pot. But if there's a dude raising limpets every other hand, I'll just fold 22 UTG; to much chance I'll throw in 1 bet, and then have to throw in another X bets just to see the flop. But then again, if the guy isolating like a maniac is only bumping to up to 4 bets, then I'm fine with limp calling.

b) is the table full of postflop calling stations? This pushes 22 UTG to a limp preflop, cause you can now actually be confident in good implied odds. But if everyone is nitty postflop (find another table ldo!), now you're pushing 22 UTG to a fold.

c) stack sizes. You limp 22 UTG, and a guy with 40 bets isolates you to 6 bets. Now you've gotta put in 5 bets to try and win a pot at most of about 42 bets (assuming it's HU between you and the isolater), so you're getting implied of 5-to-42, or roughly 1-to-8.4. This sucks. But if the guy instead has 60 beta behind, and only ever isolates to 4 bets, now you're getting 3-to-62ish, or 1-to-20 implied odds. Nice.

d) if you get isolated, what's the guys typical isolation size? 4bets (and does this indicate his hand is trash, therefore you won't get paid off?), 8bets (so if this indicates he has a nice hand, great but now you're implied odds suck and you're call to set mine is super marginal)...

Saying all of that.... Gotta be aware of the players at your table! But even if I can open limp UTG, I'm not going crazy with it; we are OOP ofc! So now 75s type hands UTG for me. More like 22-99/Broadway SCs.

I'm still a big fan of playing tight up front, loose down back. Position is king!

^^ good stuff thanks for contribootin.

i hate the open limp even more than the limp call.

raising is a much better option , like , always.

1) You will build a decent size pot

2) You will usually make field smaller

3) You appear aggressive, can represent whatever scare cards hit the board, it just gives you so much more flexibility post flop.

you occaisionally get 3 bet, but that's fine...

i limp when i get lazy or tired and just want to play gin. then i take a break.

I can understand someone not liking limping... even though our opponents at 1/2NL don't have half a brain and won't adjust, it feels weak and online it's obviously terrible. But what about making pre-flop bet sizing ultra small, like 2.5 or 3bb? You are only going to get 3bet by premium pairs and occasionally AK (which most live players end up flatting with), and you get to set your price for speculative hands like 89s instead of having to call a 12 or 14 dollar bet and have incorrect implied odds.

Too many times I see someone raise from EP to something ridiculous like 15 bucks with a hand like AQ, get called by 5 players, and then either stack off with one pair/blow chips bluffing against stations/check folding when they miss.

I've realized throughout this thread people who are.giving a case for both sides include stack sizes as a reasoning.

Then the others who advocate the limping is just straight up terrible do not even consider stack sizes. Why is this?

Do you guys believe stacks are irrelevant to consider for limping?

Do you not consider table dynamics?

Against calling stations how do you proceed after raising utg and missing the flop like you mostly will? Especially only 100bb deep? How do you then proceed?

I believe in opening most pots yes....but I also believe there is a place for everything including limping pre oop with 100bb or less in general.

In a loose passive game with a mix of OK and bad players... why?

I believe the deeper stacks are, the more irrelevant your preflop action becomes, limp or no.

500bb deep you can limp AA and T6o for all I care. 50bb deep limping premiums and marginal hands is bankroll suicide.

i'm interested in learning about how stack size effects limp or raise ? like i get it if someone or you is super short, but what is the ratio that would make a difference?

+1 to this

+1 and a

+2 to this

Kurtsf I guess California players are just naturally aggressive.