2/5.......table is weak/tight. I am super Laggy and buying lots of pots with C-bets and double barrels.

Villian.... (800ish) 60ish white male. stationy. practically never makes moves. and even if he does make a move, it is always a combo move and never an outright bluff.

Hero 1200.

Hero in the BB with QQ

six limpers around to Hero who makes it 40.

Villian UTG calls. 4 limpers call.


(240) flop Q36

Hero bets 50. Villian tank calls. Everyone else folds

(340) turn Q36 7

Hero bets 100. Villian snap shoves.

pot is 540....... about 610 to call

Hero??

My first thought was this has to always be the straight. But would he really call 40 cold (35 more) from UTG with 45 and with no one else in the pot?

Ummm... snap call? How are smaller sets not a massive part of his range? Would he have tank called the flop with 45? Most stations beat you into the pot for a small bet with an oesd.

Also old men tired of getting bullied will do this with KQ to teach you young whipper snappers a lesson.

First off, pot has to be 1150 not 540....

Cannot fold. The only hand you're losing to is the straight, and most Vs like this would snap rather than tank call the flop with the only real draw out there. I'd expect to see a straight sometimes but not often, a lower set or 2p very often.

Also, raise pre needs to be more, std table raise ($20-$25 usually), plus 1bb per limper + 1BB for playing OOP, I'm going $55 or $60 in this spot, $40 just allows everyone into the pot far too easily.

Also why so small on the flop?

c'mon people

Grunch:

OP, why are you only betting $50 otf? $160-$190 seems exponentially better with all the fish sticks l/c pre.

And as for turn decision... SNAP. I'm not trying to be mean, but I'm not sure if you're being serious. V has all other sets, random 2 pair hands, and lolbad KQ type hands in his range as well as straights (straights make up the smallest portion of his range btw).

Call and feel great about it.

Snap call. 6 combos of sets vs 4 combos of 45s. You are way ahead here even against that range. Plus he may not even call the big raise pre with 54s. Sounds like he had you beat though. Throw in some bluffs or AQ or whatever since you look weak and this is a snap snappity snap call

This is the main reason you play LAG. Someone decides to teach you a lesson for bluffing with crap and you show up with a monster. Even with my nit image, I'm calling 100% of the time.

+ 1 mirrion,

IMO, I don't think most players to include many 2+2ers truly understand what image is, what image does, and the role of our image in determining our reads, our villain responses, and actions we should take based on all of the above.

If you have a LAG image and the table thinks you are full of crap, then they are going to overvalue and overplay the absolute strength of their hands.

Against a spewy LAG, TPGK is virtually the nuts. ANd conversely, when a LAG has a monster CONVENTIONAL hand (JJ+, AK) and the board favors that conventional range, no one is ever putting the LAG on a monster hand.

In this spot, V's range is heavily weighted to sets, AQ, and even includes the occasional ******ed trappy trappy passive passive slow played KK/AA.

Out of Villain's entire shove range in this spot, 54 is probably less than 10% of that range. The overwhelming MAJORITY of V's range in this spot thanks to your preflop $40 raise is pockets, AK and AQ and maybe even a KQs. Thus when he shoves here, its going to be sets, TPTK, and ******ed trappy AA/KK 90%+ of the time

This is the reason why LAGs make a lot of money, for spots just like this. We got top set vs a villain who is probably dying to teach us a lesson.

In this spot, I can't get my money in fast enough. There would be a trail of fire from my chips to the center of the table as I shove them in so fast the windows in the casino break from the sonic boom.

Snappidity snap snap call AINEC

Grunch
I find it hard to believe v would snap shove >PSB with the nut straight, with No other draws on board.

I also find it hard to believe he would call 40 with 45 or 67 UTG with this description...but stranger things have happened, maybe he was tired of watching you run over the table and was playing ATC hoping for the best.

I think 67s maybe is the most obvious hand that might shove right here, but I'm putting him on AQ KQ? 45 67 33 66 77 and maaaaaaybe he was trying to trap you with KK AA

I doubt I could fold this as I just don't see the nut straight making this move with NO draws on board.

I call and pray the board pairs

why? because it is so hard for anyone to have a decent piece of this flop. I want callers. The table was extremely tight, which I was loving, because so many of my c-bets were successful, but this flop is so ridiculously dry when you consider that I have QQ, that I was trying to get called by hands like 88+ and A3, A6.

of course I snapped and of course I thought it was a good play. In the hand, I specifically put V on 77 when he shoved, simply because he tank called on the flop so hard. I would think that if he flopped open ended, he would have insta called 50 for the price he was getting. therefore, I reasoned that he tanked on the flop because he had 77, and didn't know where he was in the hand in relation to what I might have, and what all the other players behind him might do.

no. the reason why I posted this hand is because two of the players on the table called V's hand before he flipped it over and the table was about 50/50 as to whether I should have called or not.

The reasoning for why they knew he had the straight was because that is the only hand that he would have shoved with in that situation. I disagreed slightly, but not much. After I thought about the hand, I came to about the same conclusion, the only two hands that V was going to raise on this turn with were 45 and 77.

if he had a set of 3's or 6's, he would have raised my small flop bet.

all two pair combos are out of his range, except for 67, to which he is going to just call me down with anyway.

same with all Qx hands, and slowplayed AA, KK hands. He is just going to call me down.

The thing that suprised me so much about the hand is that he coldcalled 40 UTG pre while not getting any pot odds. Now, because of my image, I am the only player on the table that he is going to probably call with that light. But even then, I just could not put him on 45 in that situation.

This is why your flop bet needed to be bigger.

While it's true that Villain didn't have odds to call your preflop raise, he had INSANE odds to call your dumb flop bet.

I see a lot of people on the forum always saying things like, "we have top set, this board is so dry, if we bet no one calls anyway, so we can't make a real bet--we have to check or bet small" (people are going to say that in response to this post too). And here you chose to bet small.

The problem with betting small with top set is that top set is not invincible. When you bet this small, you open the door for a lot of straight draws to call you--obviously 54, but also something like 75 or, if anyone called preflop with them, 74/52/42.

When I bet the flop, I want to clearly announce, "if you called me with a trash hand preflop and now flopped something with a small chance to beat top set, you will have to pay the price to see another card and attempt to do it". Your flop bet is offering Villain 290:50, or 5.8:1, in pot odds alone, plus you will be stacking off for another 700 or so when he hits (and you will be stacking off because of how strong your hand is), meaning you are offering a total of 19.8:1 in implied odds with this flop bet. Villain would be correct to call with a gutshot, let alone an open-ender. This is exactly what you do not want to do.

Bet more on the flop and this hand plays itself. You might have gotten stacked anyway, but you would have at least forced Villain to make a mistake on the flop.

Bet more on flop ~$170.
All the hands that are raising your $50 bet are raising/calling $170 also.
All the draws that can beat you are not getting good price.

So I'm curios, regarding the villains shove... am I the only one who feels as though shoving the nut straight in this spot is a bad play? Obviously it worked because hero had top set, but with Heros image how could v put him on such a strong hand that would actually call his >PSB AI?

If I'm v here, I am check raising to around $250, then shoving the river trying to keep in hands like AA KK AQ etc... Especially since Heros bets look so weak... Am I wrong?

Against the player you described I would expect to be good here almost always. I don't see why you would think he would re-raise 33 or 66 and just flat with 77. If he is the type of player that is calling $40 in EP than you will most likely have a chance to get it back. As stated from everyone else betting 50 into 240 is asking for hands like that to call. Get em next time.

You're right that shoving with a straight here is terrible. But most villains don't think that way. They bet according to hand strength. He obviously went "omg I have the nuts! I'm just going to make a massive bet with my massive hand and hope this idiot pays me off!" With AQ type hands villain would just call down or raise smaller. They don't hand read well, they just play their own cards and be according to their hand strength.

and what you fail to realize is that I was trying to squeeze value from a much larger range of hands than just someone who flopped an open ender.

Given how tight the table was and the relative ease I was getting folds from c-bets and double barrels, the flop bet was the right amount. :If you disagree, that is up to you.

It's a horrible play. Especially when you factor in the number of times that I could be donking with hands like AK, TT here. And even moreso when two players at the table specifically called out his hand before he turned it over.

Such as what?

And does that mean you are betting $50 here with AA/KK as well?

I am trying to get value from 45, Qx, A3, A6, 77-AA. And also make my bet look so donkish that someone might make a play with a small piece or air.

But as I described, the table was so tight that betting 170 would get folds from everything but Qx, 45, AA, and KK. with me holding 2 of the queens, and it very unlikely that someone has just flatted 6 ways holding AA or KK, I am basically only getting calls from the only queen left in the deck, or 45. This hand is much too large to blow everyone off of a marginal draw or pair.


And no, if I have AA or KK here, I am betting like 180, expecting only Qx or 33 and 66 to call. But I am more than happy to take it down on the flop with AA or KK against 5 opponents.

Its another pissed off old man play. They are tired of getting bullied by the maniacs so they push back with the nuts, thinking they've finally shown you up when you fold, not realizing they just won the minimum.

So...if you have AA or KK in this spot, why aren't you making the same play? AA/KK beats all those hands too.

Please write a poker book. It would be both informative and a delight to read.

The Villain called 50 dollars on the flop with an EV of about +155 (including implied odds). Whatever the turn is he made over 100 Sklansky Bucks with his flop call. Even with a gut-shot draw he had implied-odds to call your flop-bet.

Then he successfully read your out-of-character small flop bet as being a monster and shoved rather than bet something like 250 which was recommended above. A raise to 250 would have given you great odds to draw to your full-house; it would let you made a 92 dollar plus-EV call.

p.s. Your call on the turn was -350 dollars EV but I think the flop is the interesting part of the hand.

Yeah, I've been there. Hero makes a call or raise, tight villain gets it all-in, and several of the civilians call villain's hand. Villain does indeed have that hand, and Hero feels stupid. After all, if the civilians could read the hand, why couldn't Hero?

The civilians aren't reading the hand. They just want to show everyone they can name the nuts. Although an all-in from a tight Villain will be the nuts more often than it would be for a looser player, there are still plenty of other ways for Villain to stick it in.

Count how often the civilians call someone to have the nuts, and count how often they are right. They get it right way less than half the time.