After re-watching some episodes of high stakes poker and witnessing this type of hand used in llsnl (many a time by myself) i strongly believe this hand can be played profitably in llsnl

first and foremost you have the ability to flop the 2nd nut flush draw and then complete the 2nd nuts, a very powerful hand

secondly when you flop trips with say K4 suited on a 4410 board you can easily trap a player with the more conventionally played 45, 46 or 34 connectors

next you obviosuly have AK, KQ KJ K10 and K9 suited all which are regularly played as they are suited connectors

AND you have K7 suited which is a double gutter hand -9 10 J- allows for a double gutter

and you can make weird two pairs on say a K 4 2 board


taking this into consideration i feel this is a great hand to isolate pre in position. im not a fan of isolating pre with ATC but i am a fan to isolate pre with a hand like this Kx suited or unsuited connectors (54o 68o j10o etc)
u can flop a huge draw or the nuts Axx all hearts and u have kx of hearts

also multiway this can be great

and a final point: when u do flop the 2nd nfd on a board like 10 7 2. you even have one overcard to the board. many a time i jam all in on this type of occasion because i know i have 12 outs to the guy with the 10. i have about 45-50% (12 outs: 9 flush 3 kings) equity so jamming a short stack all in is profitable if they just have one pair, and its usually pretty easy to put them on top pair

well u also have to factor table dynamics, play styles, position, before you can really consider it.

WE just had a thread on this.

It boils down to this imo:
1) Can it be played profitably?
Yes.
2) Is it likely that you can play it profitably?
No.

I like Kxs. But I don't like flopping trips with Kxs. The reason being is: Noob players love to play Axs.

I play Kxs for 2nd nut or nut flush draws depending on board texture.

I went threw a stage where I would play any Kxs. But those hands are only good to hit flushes, Unless you play K9s+. You can make good straights and flushes.

If your going to play K2-K8 make sure your postflop skills are up to par and you don't go crazy with Kx fullhouses and trips.

I'm going to eat crow on this. I said they could be profitable, but after reading the last thread, I went back and reviewed my results...after seeing the results I believe Kx suited (where x is 2 through 8) is not profitable from any position. Chasing it only for flush draw potential is probably negative EV because having a flush or flush draw on the flop is very uncommon. Pairing "x" probably won't win the pot and if you spike a King you are probably dominated. Generally, you will end up losing your preflop call and miss completely. But even if you do make the flush, there's a possibility you still lose, AND GO BROKE. I don't really like hands that are unlikely draw hands that don't even produce the nuts when I hit. I think I'm folding these and see if I bleed less preflop.

Muck pre. Seriously dude, if ur playing any hand where ur best hope is to either flop a flush draw or trips, please come play at my table. When u raise with kxs, ur either dominated, crushed or drawing slim to a worse than 10:1 draw. K9 at best is a connector but 3 gappers are worthless.

Also, think about it this way. KJ is known as a "rookie" hand because it is dominated so easily by basically any hand a tight pro would play with. If KJs is horrible, think about how absolutely abysmal K2s is.

Lmao Kjs is not a rookie hand. Noobs never raise KJs, Actually when you become good, KJs is a fun hand to make money with. I call it the nuts vs loose passives. Ex I raise KJs cbet a q 10 x board lp calls flop to hit his ace ott. I stack him all day.

If you cant raise KJs profitably from all positions then you need to reevaluate your game plan.

"One in particular is known as the 'rookie' hand because it looks tempting, but it's often nothing but trouble. KJ has probably mowed down more hometown heroes than any other hand". Daniel Negreanu, pg. 300, Power Holdem Strategy

I guess KJs is California Big Slick?

Yeah I can make money with an open-ended straight draw that gives me the nuts on the turn too. We're talking longterm results, not isolated incidences.

Like I said KJs is a very profitable hand for me. I even raise it in ep, 3bet a positionally aware opponents on a steal from the blinds and I will isolate limpers all day with it.

If your only playing premiums your leaving money on the table.

Agreed. But K-Js is about the as far as I'm willing to go away from the premiums. It's just not that good of a hand because it's easily dominated. I'd rather play low suited-connectors or small pairs even because they're not dominated as often. Point being, if K-J is about as bad as I'm willing to play, and is easily dominated, how bad is K-2s? Pretty !@%!ing bad in my view. You could use it IP as raising hand to steal the blinds/limpers, but theoretically that could be done with any random hand, so in my view it's not much better than any random hand. It has virtually no showdown equity, only fold equity.

I agree, but K10s is not a bad hand either. I like big Axs and Kxs broadways.

I would rather play Kxs then suited connectors. I see your point about having live cards. And I can't disagree or say your wrong because your not.

But the fact of making K high flushes and nut straights imo its a far better group of hands because you make more nut hands.

K10s or K9s is about as low as I'm willing to go and this is only in limited circumstances, namely OTB or CO and in unraised pot. I'm folding to a 3-bet basically 90% of time with them and they're toilet paper EP. Suited Aces are pretty much exactly the same imo. I'll go down as low as A-9s in late position in an unraised pot, because a better ace would likely have raised.

Imo the absolute biggest advantage to playing 1-2 is that it is only costing you $3 to see 10 hands, $3 is nothing, so imo it's almost as if the blinds don't even exist in 1-2. If this is the case, then why not play only the premiums?

Tournament play almost necessitates a LAG style because it's centered around winning the blinds/antes. 1-2 is the polar opposite, their is little value in stealing the blinds, so most of your profit (not all) comes from: 1) playing better starting hands than your opponents; 2) Losing less $$$ with your losing hands than your opponents; 3) Winning more $$$$ with your winning hands than your opponents. At higher levels pros will be more LAG because that's: 1) there actually is value in stealing in the blinds at say 10-20; 2) You don't want your opponents to put you on a specific hand because your range is so polarized. But at 1-2 most opponent's don't pay enough attention to you, so there's really no value in expanding your range.

K-x suited just doesn't fit the criterion of a starting hand that is going to make money. Can you make money on it in isolated incidences? Absolutely. But only if your post-flop skills are truly that much better than your opponents. And if it is the case that you truly are that much better post-flop then you could make money off any random hand, not just K-2s, which means low suited Kings are pretty much just as good (no better) than any random hand in terms of showdown value.

And the thing is that I'm not being nitty either...having hands as bad as K-9s, suited connectors, and low pocket pairs actually gives me a pretty widerange.

I like this thread because im trying to assess my pf range lately. Kj is an interesting hand. I raise limpers with it in late position, and i open small with it in early position. I play 2-5, so will open for 15 as a blocker to see flops cheap, fold to 3 bets which are rare, and ill raise to 30 against limpers. Ill call a raise in late position too. Pretty standard probably. Rookie hand? If you are just mucking jks i think you have little confidence in your post flop game. That said, ive called raises twice in my last two sessions, hit a jack for top pair, and folded it to the pf raiser correctly both times. If you can play it for better than a pair post flop, or showdown value, i think its a fine starting hand. Just dont be dumb about it and overplay top pair. Can i get an amen?

please tell me this is a level. if it is then its hilarious. if not then this is just terrible

How can you possibly say calling a preflop raise with K-J is good? What hand do you expect to be ahead of that would raise in early position? You are dominated by K-Q, A-J, and crushed by JJ+. Then you get there on the flop and you still have to fold, you admit this, and still call it a good hand?

Have I fallen asleep and found myself in a Twlight Zone episode?! How is K-J a good hand?

Sure, raise with it against limps on the BTN or CO. Don't CALL a raise with it though.

Suited connectors are WAY better than non connected Kxs hands because you are more likely to flop combo draws.

I play Kxs from the button in limped pots and maybe I'll complete in the SB. That's about it.

I call raises with KJ- the key is that I'm floating a lot and making plays in position. As long as I win the pot a lot when I don't make a hand, being dominated isn't that big of a deal because we aren't often going to make a hand where being dominated makes a difference, and it's not like I'm getting stacks in with top pair- position is key (I only call raises with KJ out of the blinds if they are suited or the raise came from LP).

That's different b/c you are defending against a LP steal attempt (presumably) in the blinds, where you already have money invested. You may chose to defend the blinds with any two cards, if the raise was from late position and you feel was a steal attempt, and also feel you can steal the pot if he misses. Or you may reraise in the blind with any two cards to send a message. At that point, your hand is immaterial. But in the example posted, it seemed like he was calling an early position raise with KJ. I don't want to get into it too much about this one scenario, but in my view, that's all sorts of bad.

Depending on the size of raise being called, stacks, and any callers in between, calling with KJs/etc. from late position and treating it like a suited connector is fine. You just have to know why you are playing it, and what flops you will continue on. We are not looking for top pair value (generally) in the same way we aren't with 78s.
I tend not to defend with it out of the blinds for the same reason I will fold suited connectors there - not a fan of playing drawing hands from OOP.

Sure, but I don't like calling raises with suited connectors either. I'll enter with suited connectors myself, or limp in a limped pot, but I don't like calling EP raises with them.

In fact, I don't like calling preflop at all. If I believe my starting hand warrants playing, I will come in with a raise basically 100% of the time. If I believe it is better than that what my opponent has raised with, I will 3 bet. If it isn't worth opening with a raise, I won't limp, I'll fold. I won't be the first limper into a pot. Conversely, if it is a raised pot and my hand isn't worth a 3 bet, I will fold unless on the BTN or in the blinds. I just don't like playing pots out of position, when someone else has the initiative preflop, with marginal hands. Maybe that's just style/personal preference. KJ is one notch below what I'm willing to call a raise with (KQ or AJs is fine in my view). I may occassionally call with KJs if the situation warrants it, such as if my opponent is opening with a very wide range. KJo is pretty much out of the question though, I can pick better spots.

Your calling range should be narrowest out of the blinds.

Always 3betting if you're going to play a hand is losing really tremendous amounts of value (both because there are a lot of hands we would rather flat and because there are a lot of hands you are probably folding that are worth a call).

Wait. So you have no calling range except on the button or in the blinds. So you won't play a SC on the HJ for a raise from an EP raiser, but you will play AJs from the blinds? Really? This right after you say you don't like playing pots OOP?
Seems like you are rambling a bit, and quite inconsistent with your thinking. There are times when playing a SC in position for a raise is exactly the correct play. There are times it isn't.

Hmm...all good points. I just don't see KJ, especially KJo, being one of those times where calling is optimal because I think you're behind most of the time. Particularly where you have no money invested. I don't like thinking I'm going to play "x" hand unless I have compelling reason not to. I think the opposite is true, I'm not going to play any hand, unless I have compelling reason to do so. Holding KJ in a raised pot, when I have no money invested, just gives me no reason to call. I don't have money invested, it's not a premium holding, there's a good chance I'm dominated. I'm laying it down.

As far as calling in the blinds, I was thinking of the scenario you brought up where it was folded to a LP raiser who opened, who was likely on a steal attempt. I think your calling range should be fairly wide in that scenario. Defend your blinds.

I didn't bring that up, but yes your range can be a little wider there. but we'll still need to be able to outplay our opponent postflop to make calling there wide good.

I wasn't really disagreeing with you about KJ, at least as a baseline. I very rarely fold KJ to 1 raise in a 2/5 but I also almost always consider myself to be the best player in 2/5 games I play. Its like I said in your thread about moving up to 2/5. I started off a nit and as I got more and more comfortable I added hands to my ranges. At first I was folding KJ basically always. But now that I am very comfortable at 2/5 I play it.

Its one of the reasons I find discussions about PF hand ranges very difficult to have a useful conversation about. What you should do PF is almost exclusively dependent on how well you play postflop compared to your opponents which is obviously hard to do over the internet.