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KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep

06-10-2014 , 05:51 PM
Playing in a very loose 2/5 game. Hero's stack is $1,500 and Villian covered.

Villian is very loose, aggressive. Raises any limped pot or if he is first in to at least $25. Players line up when he is in the game. Very aggressive and over bet bluffs and with made hands. Today in about $4k and sitting on $2k. May be a bit tilted as I called his turn reraise in a recent hand with top pair and the nut flush draw. Then re raised all in when I hit the nuts on the river. He disgustedly folded and said he had a set.

Hero is seen as pretty aggressive preflop but not putting big money in post flop without the goods.

Hero raised to $20 in early position with KQ. Villian raised to $70 on the button. Hero calls to go heads up.

Flop is K93. Check to Villian who bets $200. Hero?
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-10-2014 , 06:04 PM
It's nice to know he raises limped pots to $25+, but it doesn't pertain much here. Would much rather know more about his 3-bet tendencies. Call flop and reevaluate turn, unless you're comfortable getting an SPR of 9 all in with TP 2nd kicker in on the flop. Life is going to be hell though.
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-10-2014 , 06:29 PM
Time to jump on the variance train. Against described V I probably just close my eyes and shove flop over his bet. You aren't losing to much and it sounds like his 3b range is much wider than JJ+/AK. If you jam now he might level himself into thinking you have a draw. Just calling his overbet OOP is going to make the turn and river not so fun
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-10-2014 , 07:15 PM
With this type of villain, there's two ways to play this hand. You can 4bet, because his 3bet range is going to be fairly wide and he knows that someone is playing aggressively against him deep, he's probably in trouble. He'll fold here a lot.

The other way is to call pf, just grit your teeth and call him down if you have something. You can shove, but unless he has TP as well, he's not calling.
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-10-2014 , 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94
Time to jump on the variance train. Against described V I probably just close my eyes and shove flop over his bet. You aren't losing to much and it sounds like his 3b range is much wider than JJ+/AK. If you jam now he might level himself into thinking you have a draw. Just calling his overbet OOP is going to make the turn and river not so fun
if you are comfortable in getting it in here, why shove? raise small to induce some spazz from him, c/c him down, c/c, donk turn or smth weird to keep his bluffs him etc...
all of this seems better than c/shove here in a very marginal situation, which looks like a "**** it, shut it down" type play. i really don´t see any reasons to shove here, turns and rivers are not so fun? yeah, well, if you are comfortable in getting your stack in, why not give villain a chance to bluff you out instead of folding his bluffs and isoing urself vs the top part of his range?
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-10-2014 , 09:24 PM
I would c/c till the river then shove
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-10-2014 , 09:44 PM
I elected to call as I figured to have the best hand but wanted to evaluate what he did on the turn. He had bet every flop that had checked to him but had slowed down on a lot of turns. I had witnessed him bomb one river against another player though and when they folded he verbalized he thought it would look like a bluff so he can mix up his play.

The turn was a 7 so board is K973 with a flush draw. I checked and he over bet jammed all in for around $1200. Thoughts on call or fold?

Last edited by BulltexasATM; 06-10-2014 at 09:47 PM. Reason: Added board
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-10-2014 , 09:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauhund
if you are comfortable in getting it in here, why shove? raise small to induce some spazz from him, c/c him down, c/c, donk turn or smth weird to keep his bluffs him etc...
all of this seems better than c/shove here in a very marginal situation, which looks like a "**** it, shut it down" type play. i really don´t see any reasons to shove here, turns and rivers are not so fun? yeah, well, if you are comfortable in getting your stack in, why not give villain a chance to bluff you out instead of folding his bluffs and isoing urself vs the top part of his range?
Let's say turn is 8, you check and V bets $500, are you still calling? Let's say turn is A and V bets $500, are you still calling? V will probably never think you are going to beat him at his own game by overshoving one pair. If he does have AK/AA or somehow has two pair, well that sucks, but not enough combos for me to care. Min-raising to $400 is still a "big bet" and unlikely to induce a shove.
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-10-2014 , 10:04 PM
I'm not sure about pre-flop.

KQs is pretty, and you're deep, so calling pre-flop can't be bad, but you're just folding an absolute ton to c-bets. It's pretty hard to play vs. a 3-bet oop, even against an aggressive villain. And you're raising from EP, and unless you say otherwise, it's hard to say he's going to be especially light. His value range dominates you badly, his airy range wins c-bets.

I'm sure there's an argument for 4-betting pre effectively as a bluff. You have blockers. You rep a very nutty range from EP. You think villain may have a wider 3-bet range, so he may be folding a very good % of his 3-bet range here making your 4-bet immediately and substantially profitable.

I gotta say, I like 4-betting pre better than calling.

I'll be the first to admit I have no idea what we're doing post-flop. And that probably plays quite a bit into why I don't like calling pre-flop. But as played, I'm of the mind of close your eyes and call down. I do not like shoving any street - I think a shove skews his range more to hands we less prefer to stick around, and of course he folds any air.
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-10-2014 , 11:06 PM
The way you own super aggro villains is NOT by out aggro'ing them. It's counter intuitive, but against aggro maniac type villains, you don't want to 4-bet them in this spot simply because you will still have little to no fold equity post flop. Instead, you want to flat them, allow them to keep the initiative, and then call them down with your value hands.

In this case, we have TPGK and against a super aggro I'm fine calling down here with KQ...

The only thing that gives me pause is that in the OP V shoved when he had a set.

Which kinda brings me to this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thamel18
It's nice to know he raises limped pots to $25+, but it doesn't pertain much here. Would much rather know more about his 3-bet tendencies.
THis is a key point. Not all aggressiveness is equal. There is a difference between opening really wide and even calling really wide vs 3-betting preflop and shoving on the turn after a huge flop c-bet.

As played, if OP is accurate and V is a maniac that has been overplaying his hands post flop and being super aggro, then I'm 100% fine c/c down and stationing V for stacks.

Or put another way, if V could spazz here with AJ type hands, then I'm fine stationing here.
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-11-2014 , 12:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris
Or put another way, if V could spazz here with AJ type hands, then I'm fine stationing here.
If we really think our best-case scenario here is to run into AJ, a hand with 12 outs to beat us, we shouldn't have been calling preflop.

In order to call preflop and call down with top pair, our best-case scenario should be V showing up with something like 87 or something else so ridiculous that he'd be embarrassed to show it.

If we think this is impossible we probably have to fold preflop.
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-11-2014 , 04:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94
Let's say turn is 8, you check and V bets $500, are you still calling? Let's say turn is A and V bets $500, are you still calling? V will probably never think you are going to beat him at his own game by overshoving one pair. If he does have AK/AA or somehow has two pair, well that sucks, but not enough combos for me to care. Min-raising to $400 is still a "big bet" and unlikely to induce a shove.
well, at least you give him a chance to bluff you instead of just blindly overbet shove your top pair, basically praying he´s not calling.
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-11-2014 , 04:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauhund
well, at least you give him a chance to bluff you instead of just blindly overbet shove your top pair, basically praying he´s not calling.
I want him to call, just not a snap call.
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-11-2014 , 04:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94
I want him to call, just not a snap call.
why that? all it says villain is overly aggressive, not a huge donk who´s gonna stack off with KT in this spot. i highly doubt you are ahead of his range once he calls, whether he snaps it or tank calls.
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-11-2014 , 09:51 AM
I tanked for quite a while. My gut told me I had him beat and why would he overshove if he could beat my hand. Then I leveled myself into thinking he could have AK, AA or 99 and be trying to make it look like he was bluffing and ultimately folded. I figured I would find a better spot.

He then showed A10 offsuit (he did have the Ace). Dgi as usual nailed it and would have snapped him off. Thanks for everyone's replies.
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-11-2014 , 02:20 PM
I don't like playing KQ from early position when there's a LAG on the button. A lot of LAGs are raising a ton of buttons to the point where you have to expect the 3-bet. Unless you're willing to 4-bet pre or stack off with top pair, there's not a lot of incentive to play it. You're just never going to be comfortable after the flop even when you hit top pair like this. This particular LAG is going to pay off like a slot machine when you do hit, so I'd prefer small pps and suited aces instead of broadway cards against him.
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote
06-11-2014 , 03:22 PM
OP, very nice read on opponent and his tendencies, you just have to follow through and call him down if you're comfortable w the variance. You should have decided PF if you would go w the hand if an K or Q flopped. If not, and that's okay, then you should have folded to the reraise OOP preflop.

I know it's not textbook to play a one pair hand for stacks this deep but if I feel I have as good of a read as you did on an opponent, I will. I don't think the right play is to wait around for a nutty hand, they're just too rare and good LAG's will back down when you show strength so you may not get paid when you do get your nutty hand anyway. Plus your image looks wild to the other opponents so you'll get paid more often from them because they think you're willing to commit deep w TPGK, not realizing it was only against this specific V.

LAG's don't like when you call, they want you to raise or fold so they know where they're at and they thrive on most players unwillingness to play a big pot without an extremely strong hand.
KQ suited vs lag 2/5 deep Quote

      
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