Hero covers- tight nit winner

Villain $300- older 50s man, plays 1/3, observant, knows I play tight

2/5 9 handed,

Hero opens Utg $20, villain flats Utg+1, called in two other spots 4 ways

Flop: Q 5 3r ($85)
Hero bets $60, villain raises to $160, 2 folds, hero goes all in..

Well played?

160 hour break even/ slightly losing play filled with hands like this has me questioning the most simple of spots. Players seem to be playing perfectly against me

Over pair + 60bb = easy game.

nh, wp.

Expect you're usually against AQ in this spot, with occasional sets, and if V is OMN, rare occurrences of AA and KK.

$20 preflop raise UTG with KK is a bit low, should be $30 - $45, otherwise, you are just pricing in all manner of V's to call you and stack you with their SCs or set mine against you.

As played, this is super standard get it all in nice hand/board

I know the general consensus on this forum and also coming from bart hansons material which is absolute gold, live players at these stakes don't pay attention.

I swear to god my player pool does. Not all of them, but i'd say most of the "regulars" are paying attention. And I play vs a lot of regulars. In my games there's not a whole lot of talking or laughing or joking etc. All i'm saying is my games aren't as soft as what I see on 2p2.
They're smart enough to know a large open from EP is a sign of strength,
or a change in opening sizes is a signal of strength,
or the fact that i'm the original raiser means a lot to these guys.
or when I make a btn raise, no respect whatsoever,
or if I open LP when I fold they comment how I have nothing and i'm good enough to be playing 5-10 and not 2-5.
or when I 3bet I get mad respect and they fold a bunch of **** to me
BUT.. they're still stupid enough to let me know all this by verbalizing it.

I should just adjust and open up my game, right? problem is stack sizes are way to shallow to do so.

Over my last 160 hours i've been running like garbage, but in almost every single one of my big pots, I had to fade big draws or "cooler" someone. I don't remember the last time a regular went ape **** crazy with TPTK vs me.

OMN means?
Villain flatted AA and won. gg.

with such shallow stacks, there's no folding KK on this board.

I believe it means 'Old Man Nit'

Old Man Nit.

Sorry man, but you played it fine.

Edit: Ninja'd

Variance gonna vary. NH

I've played in Vegas, NM, AZ, and the Bay Area and have easily played in 20 different casinos over the last couple of years...

and one of the things they all have in common is that everyplace pretty much feels that their particular area is "special" and better than all the other areas.

Similarly, players feel that their particular player pool (especially their friends/regulars) are better than the norm.

In your case, I pointed out that you are making a mistake not raising enough and your counter is essentially an excuse that not only allows you to keep playing incorrectly but also counters the logical retort to your excuse.

+EV play is +EV play.

If you want to rationalize why you are a unique special snowflake and why the normal rules of poker don't apply to you then fine.

I don't think you made a "mistake" per se, but you can and should be raising more with KK. Otherwise, you are balancing in the wrong direction, that is, playing your strong hands "weak".

fist pump shove

why would he raise a set on this board?

nice hand AA v KK /thread

A better question is Villain is $700 deep and raises to $160 then what?

Huh. Bart Hanson ITT and ITF. Color me surprised. Looking for material for you next podcast?

With effective stacks of $700, SPR is 8 on this flop, which is not optimal for overpairs, but not horrible. We are OOP and V is "an older man who knows we play tight. Against this V, there is a chance he's "raising for information," and little chance he's willing to play TPTK for stacks this deep.

I would probably either 3-bet/fold, or call and donk turn, giving up if called or raised. I prefer to click-it-back OTF, as we can make our bet smaller for the same "impact" since it's a 3-bet.

To me, this is a pretty easy fold against an older 50s man that shoves over the top of your perfectly sized c-bet on such a dry board.

Everyone else is quick to point out that you only had 60bb's to start the hand...so what?
Fold and reload or just play with the $220 you have left.

But that's just me...

if its an old man nit, i guess we can fold. or bet/call and check/fold later streets. ( i'm guessing Bart that your approach would be to bet/call, chk/call, and chk/fold since even if they are value-cutting themselves on flop/turn, you are never good against live playes' river shipping range)


I got owned recently in a 5/10 game where I raised ace ace out of SB and old man limper called. Flop QJ5.... I stacked off against jack jack.

this just reinforces that with some of these guys, their raising range post flop is pretty much always 2pr+

i play bad. i'm still tilted out of my mind for paying the geezer off. i would rather masturbate with a cheese grater than give that ****er my money. ****... paying off feels horrible.

Yeah, maybe you should just shove pre

Hey Bart, thanks for popping in. I appreciate all your free podcasts and LATB. Great stuff man.

If villain had 700 behind I would have felt more comfortable even though I might have lost more. It's just these ******ed 30-60bb AI on the flop type hands that annoy the hell out of me. Seeing all the money go in on the flop for these kind of pots leaves me feeling like I have no control whatsoever. Even though i'm a bit of a pre flop warrior, I like making post flop decisions. I had over 1k at the time so I would have had him covered.

If villain raised with 700 behind, I would have called and reevaluated. The turn was an A, and depending on his bet size, I probably would have just folded right there. If the turn was a Q I would have done the same. Any low card and i'm c/c turn, c/f river

If villain knows us as well as is claimed you should have a good idea whether AQ is in his range.

There are definitely villains you can fold here against. 60BB is not THAT short and villain has 2 players behind him. There are villains who never have <1 pair here. You have to figure out which they are and the forum can't really help.

Against an unknown I never fold but you seem to know that so it is your ability to observe/range/read villain well that is the issue, not a check up of your line.

I think the problem/solution to your question lies in your definition/interpretation of "Old Man Nit".

For me, Old Man Nit is a scared money super nit playing with his SSN check and is never making moves because that is what "gamblers" do, but rather is just sitting and waiting for AA/KK or sets so he can play/shove...

Thus imho, this becomes a simple matter of ranging. Super nits or OMN's don't 3bet from $20 to $160 with JJ,QQ, AK because they suspect you are raising light. It just doesn't happen. Their range is KK/AA 100% (80% weighted to AA) of the time and against that range KK is not only a fold, but an EASY fold pre.

OMN's are pathologically afraid of getting their Aces "cracked" and they raise and 3bet ridiculous amounts that virtually shout "I have aces and I don't want them to get cracked!!!"

So against an OMN we have a very very ultra rare case were we can just fold KK pre, and it should be an easy fold because again, he's never doing this with JJ, QQ, AK.

Lastly, if your definition of OMN encompasses a range of JJ-AA, AK, then sure, we can call or even 4bet and play post flop. Thus, this really is an exercise of ranging and what you think the range of an OMN in this situation is.

If you truly are viewed as a tight nit winner, any raise from EP will be a signal of strength. Raise more pre. If you are sure they will be able to read your hand by bet size, then use fixed bet sizes, but make your UTG standard open larger.

BTW, are you folding pre to a 3bet here?

I think the problem imo is that there are just too many players who would ship here with KQ and ESPECIALLY AQ here for essentially a remaining PSB.

I mean, its not like we're talking about a $200 pot and a $400 shove.

Pot is roughly $85 on flop and then Hero bets out $65 so pot is $150 when it gets to Villain. V at this point has $280 behind. If V has AQ what would he do? If he calls, pot is now $215 with him having exactly $215 behind....

There are multiple ways V could play AQ in this spot so I'm not debating that. What I am saying is that out of the villain bell curve easily 90% of villains have zero problems raising/stacking off in this spot with AQ or even KQ. So for us to not feel good about our KK we need to:

#1 Be able to soul read V for ONLY being part of that 10% who would not stack off with TPTK for under 60bb on a great flop for KQ/AQ
#2 Realize that not only does he not stack off with TPTK but he's also willling to call a preflop raise with 33 or 55.
#3 He would call pre with QQ

Now, #1 and #2 are kinda contradictory. You gotta figure that if someone is nitty enough to NOT stack off with AQ here he'd also be too nitty to call a preflop raise to setmine with 33 or 55 when 60bb deep right? So finding someone who fits both molds probably cuts the player population of that 10% in half...

So, add everything up, and I just don't see how KK can fold here. The only way we can fold KK in this spot and feel good about it is if we are up against the nittiest Mcnitty nit in the universe who is calling our preflop raise w QQ. This same nit would NEVER call with 33 or 55 and conversely would 3bet AA pre some ridiculous amount because they would be afraid of getting "cracked". Thus, this super nit would only raise with the stone cold nuts.

And I do know of one nit player like this, I play with her all the time and you could comfortably fold anything to her raise because she ONLY raises with the stone cold nuts, and I mean that literally.

So I just don't see how for 60bb we can every fold KK here. 99.8% of the time, we should be comfortable calling.

Really don't understand your comment.

Do you play 2/5nl at all? A $20 raise in 2/5nl is a "lets build the pot" raise.

Standard raise size in 2/5nl is $25 - $35 pre easy.

So I don't get how you go from me saying we should be raising more pre $30 - $45 to your suggestion of open shoving with KK???

Or, I guess you're trying to be snarky/funny????