It seems like a situation where he knows you don't have any card 7 or lower but you can't say the same about him. Is that fair?

If so he can cap your range at a pair but you can't cap his range. Huge info advantage for him and I'd fold almost for that reason alone. Of course you want to call some of these overbets, but I don't think this is a good spot for it.

I think he has a set and hopes you call with an over-pair. It seems like way too big an amount for a bluff here and similarly with any one pair hand he might have except for AA.

Do you have any more info on villain in terms of how he has been playing? Has he been bluffing a lot or just overbetting when he's had it?

I actually really like the check because people will rarely give you credit for having strong hands in your checking range after 3 betting pre.

I'm really torn here because people like to go for a crazy image but when they bet big they usually just have it. On the other hand, having it could include hands like JJ and he doesn't want to get drawn out on.

Ultimately, if he really had a set here, I just don't think he would go for this sizing given that you both checked. I probably call down and if I lost then I would tell myself I was at the top of my range and sometimes you just get coolered. If calling and losing is going to send you on tilt though, maybe you can fold...

I think calling is the better option, it keeps his bluffs alive, and check jamming here just screams "I have a big pair" and lets him fold his TT-QQ type hands. We want to keep the story alive that we have a marginal pocket pair or AK and we are in a tough spot. The only turn card that kills our action really is going to be an ace or a king in my opinion. If he has JJ, a Q doesn't actually change that much.

If you don't post the results, could you pm me I'm curious.

He should know I don't have any card 7 or lower. This is my first 4-bet of the night, and I just would never 4-bet any hand that has a card 7 or lower in it. Those hands will all be mucks or flats from me.

As to whether he can have a 7 or lower, again it comes back to whether he'd ever min 3-bet with those hands pre-flop. I'd have thought not but it certainly is more likely that he 3 bets with a hand like 77 than for me to 4-bet with it, both because a 4-bet is stronger than a 3-bet and because he plays kind of strangely.

He hasn't shown down any bluffs (though in HH2 he was inadvertently bluffing the flop with bottom set with his raise sizing). As for overbets more generally, the only time I've seen them from him are pre-flop when he has made some stupid big open raises and the hand history.

As a half-spoiler, I did see his hand so will post results at some point.

Gross.

Call.

So yeah, I'm still foldfoldfold here and I think in general you need to disguise hands pre-flop with 500bb stacks against this guy, semi-drunk or not.

If you have been playing pretty straightforward maybe switch gears and flat premiums and 3bet him with 98s once or twice.

It sucks but this is an easy fold. We cant play for stacks with 1 pair.

Agree with everything spider said

im not folding here. pay off wizard mode engaged. what would mirko say? "CAWL CAWL CAWL!"

actually i jam all-in and expect villain to have exactly QQ. easy game!!!

Yup.

IME half drunk rec/fish don't have this play in their preflop arsenal. I would expect him to get very quiet, tank a good bit, and 5! pre w/AA.

I don't like the check otf simply because it puts us in station mode for possibly 3 streets. I think we can fire 2/3 pot - psb otf and expect 88-QQ to just call and 2pr+ to click it back. Maybe not, but at least its SOMETHING to help us narrow his range. Were you going to c/r a normal size bet? Call and re-evaluate turn?

AP, gross. IDK, I guess I go broke here. Jam it. It just seems far too possible this particular V is doing this to "protect" his over pair and since I'm ruling out AA.....

We are currently tanking on this right? Did we try to squeeze a read out of him? I'm a big fan of giving a little sigh, maybe a bit of a shoulder shrug or shake of the head, and grabbing a stack of big denomination chips and watching to see how he feels about this. If he glances at your hand/chips when you grab them, I'm for sure shoving. If he seems uninterested, IDK, maybe we can fold.

If we jam, he snap calls and tables a set. If we fold he says "good fold" and shows us QQ.

Results - I shove. V kind of grudgingly snap calls with JJ. Run out is clean and my kings hold up to win a $2k pot.

As an aside, I've never seen people so happy for me to win a pot. This guy was being that obnoxious.

You check to induce, it works and now you wanna pussy out?

Shoving is the only play, he could have AJ or some trash hand a great % of the time given his description

If he has AJ or some trash don't we want to flat and hope he shoves turn? He's not calling with those hands. Reason to shove is because he has an overpair he's accidentally turning into a bluff

Grudgingly snap calls? What does that look like exactly?

I hate when people come into a thread and comment after results so take this with a grain of salt, but I thought it as an easy call.

He kinda got a "who farted" twisted up look on his face, but called immediately. It was funny because when I get snapped off here I assume I'm beat, but the way he did it I knew I was good.

Wow, good call, nice hand! I really overestimated this guy based on how I interpreted the OP. I mean, betting 500 was bad, but calling your shove is just inexplicable for a decent player. And I'm not sure if I understand why you shove here? B/c he might have 98?

I shove on the theory that he has an overpair and once he puts in $500 he's not folding. Not putting him on 98 really. In retrospect calling may be better, though with the dynamic I don't think he's folding a made hand here.

I didn't mean to give the impression that V was a decent player. He may be but I'd be a little surprised if he were, even sober. Based on both the HH2 and this hand he for some reason wants to turn made hands into bluffs with huge sizings. My experience with deep stack play is that this is a leak you see sometimes when people aren't comfortable playing later streets with non-nut hands. For instance, on this flop there are a lot of bad cards for him (A, K and Q, and if he's not thinking about my range, 5 and 4 too) and by betting big on the flop he avoids getting in tough spots in later hands. The two biggest pots I've won recently, this one and another 2k pot at this game a month or two ago, had this dynamic.

Yeah, you're right. It makes sense in the heat of the moment that he just calls with any PP (that he thought was good when he bet 500) whereas if you give him more time to think about it or an overcard hits then he finds a way to get away from the hand since a call is scarier than a shove to the extent he's paying attention (especially as his flop bet is such an overbet).

This. Pre sizing is pathetic.

I would be going $90-100 pre. $60 seems way too small given the dynamic and our poor position.

calling is just wrong. only a literal ****** would continue to bluff after hero calls 500 on the flop. and if villain has any outs, even a 2 outter, calling is disastrously wrong. you give him infinite pot odds to suck out on you in a huge! pot. dont do it. jam not jelly.

looks like i was pretty much exactly right (though he had JJ instead of QQ) his range never extended as far down as 88.

fwiw i like the check on the flop in this spot A LOT and not just cause it worked out so well. I also don't think the sizing pre is as horrible as everyone else but i would have gone a bit higher maybe 70 or 80 in retrospect.