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KK facing a 4 bet preflop

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03-02-2012 , 08:53 PM

FitzyII

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 274

villain is old nit and 4 bets big preflop in a $2/$5 game and I fold my KK, and he shows AA. It was an easy fold against him, since I've played with him for a while.

My question is what you guys do in same situation against an unknown? Say 1/2 or 2/5 game, 100bb effective stack, and the villain 4 bets makes hero pot committed, push or fold?

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03-02-2012 , 09:02 PM

ChoicestHops

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,995

If he really is an old nit you can lay KL down. I know it sounds strange ig you started playing online, but old rocks don't 3bet QQ.

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03-02-2012 , 09:22 PM

fun101

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 2,237

u can fold if u strongly believe that his 4bet range is KK+, which it very likely is.

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03-02-2012 , 10:06 PM

vaz1981

adept

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 1,190

Imo, 100bb deep against an unknown, I'm shippin KK every time. Against an old nit you're familiar with, that's a pretty standard, and very disciplined fold. WP

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03-02-2012 , 11:46 PM

Pug Walker

adept

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 854

Quote:

Originally Posted by FitzyII

100BB effective stack, I'm never folding QQ+ pre.

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03-02-2012 , 11:51 PM

vaz1981

adept

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 1,190

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pug Walker

100BB effective stack, I'm never folding QQ+ pre.

Sorry, but its pretty bad to say "never" here. Old nits that sit for hours waiting to 4bet with only AA are extremely transparent. Best case scenario for the hand in the OP is a chop if villain has the other two kings.

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03-03-2012 , 12:03 AM

Pug Walker

adept

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 854

Quote:

Originally Posted by vaz1981

Well yeah then its obvious.
I'm just saying in a new game etc. Not folding QQ+ without reads etc.

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03-03-2012 , 03:21 AM

Dirty313

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 1,486

^^^
u dont fold qq with 100bb

please come to my home game

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03-03-2012 , 09:55 AM

VinnyStax11

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 394

If you can't fold KK pre to a 4bet from an old nit then you obviously haven't played against old nits

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03-03-2012 , 10:10 AM

#10

sexdotcom

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 3,866

The other night there was an old nit who limp/call with AK, limp/call with QQ. Then one hand he limp/raised big, I made a crying call with KK. Obviously he had AA.
Nits gonna nit, inter web kids gonna inter web kid.

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03-03-2012 , 10:40 AM

#11

Drawing dead 81

enthusiast

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 50

Call and suck out lol! I Shipped it on an old nits 3 bet he asked for a count thought about it for at least 30 seconds and called with AA. And yes this was all preflop. I had qq flop comes AQ7 turn was a Q and yeah river a 2. SHIP IT!

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03-03-2012 , 10:57 AM

#12

KoreanHacker

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 467

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexdotcom

I made a crying call with KK. Obviously he had AA.
Nits gonna nit, inter web kids gonna inter web kid.

Ahahahaha so true.

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03-03-2012 , 12:02 PM

#13

vaz1981

adept

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 1,190

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexdotcom

Nits gonna nit, inter web kids gonna inter web kid.

Im totally stealing this for use in future posts about old rocks at the table

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03-03-2012 , 12:16 PM

#14

AintNoLimit

Coach live/online NLHE

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 6,399

I have not been able to use this answer in a while so I will offer it now.

In NLH, it is almost worthless to discuss/argue/debate over situations that happen only once a blue moon. Folding KK pre can be done VERY effectively but only in extreme spots which are rare. So the overall picture really doesnt matter much at all what you do especially for 100bb.

This thought will flow over many poker situations where players argue oer grey areas and neutral spots etc, rather than spend more industrious time on subjects that really matter.

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03-03-2012 , 12:53 PM

#15

kenji08

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,360

guys the question was do you fold to an unknown, not old man nit. so i stand by whoever says im NEVER folding KK 100bb to an unknown.

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03-03-2012 , 12:58 PM

#16

RauL!

centurion

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 115

I think without read I won't fold KK pre

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03-03-2012 , 01:14 PM

#17

Bene Gesserit

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 6,365

IMHO only, Folding KK pre can very seldom be justified. Fairly rare circumstances only indeed, especiallly live. Guess I am just not good enough to do it!

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03-03-2012 , 01:39 PM

#18

VinnyStax11

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 394

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenji08

guys the question was do you fold to an unknown, not old man nit. so i stand by whoever says im NEVER folding KK 100bb to an unknown.

Yes, in general folding kings pre is horrid... But it's pretty easy to spot an old nit regardless of if you know him or not, and old nits 4betting range = AA .. 3b range = KK+

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03-03-2012 , 01:44 PM

#19

caseycjc

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,728

Quote:

Originally Posted by AintNoLimit

/thread

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03-03-2012 , 02:07 PM

#20

Nogyong

veteran

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,801

Against an unknown in a live 1/2 game (and if I'm also unknown to him) then its pretty standard for me to get the chips in in this spot for 100bb. With chip stacks of 135bb or more I start to feel less comfortable.

At some point, calling and playing postflop also becomes an option.

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03-03-2012 , 04:57 PM

#21

Dirty313

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 1,486

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenji08

guys the question was do you fold to an unknown, not old man nit. so i stand by whoever says im NEVER folding KK 100bb to an unknown.

this. with no reads never fold kk unless obviously you have 150+bb

against old nits its pretty obvious when you have to, one time this guy was f*cking ******ed at a 1/2 game. the old man would play 1 hand an orbit if he wasnt in the blinds and would only raise JJ+, limp/call with ak and flat an open with jj or qq, so 3 bet is only kk/aa

the guy raised to 12 with kk, old man 3 bets to 25, kk 4 bets to 60 and the old man ships it for 220 lol. kk calls rofl

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03-03-2012 , 11:54 PM

#22

absherrj

banned

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,410

Ive seen many an old nit limp call with AK. 4 betting old dudes are kk minimum

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03-04-2012 , 01:38 AM

#23

Kyuubimon

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 685

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexdotcom

Nits gonna nit, inter web kids gonna inter web kid.

This. Just last night there were several of these Interweb kids at the table. Now, I don't think I'm that old, but the Interweb kids obviously did. I bet for thin value on the river with second button against a missed draw, got called, and won. They commented on that play, as if they had some sort of patent on thin value betting. Judging by appearance is not a good thing.

As for the question, it's very difficult to get away from wired kings against a truly unknown player. That's why I don't like receiving such hands in the first orbit. Barring reads or tells, laying down wired kings is next to impossible.

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03-04-2012 , 08:35 AM

#24

wake_up

adept

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 730

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit

IMHO only, Folding KK pre can very seldom be justified. Fairly rare circumstances only indeed, especiallly live. Guess I am just not good enough to do it!

On the contrary, I would say that spots where it's OK to fold KK pf come up alot more in live games.

Old nits don't play online poker.

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03-04-2012 , 08:44 AM

#25

canoodles

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 7,017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drawing dead 81

Ship the thousands of dollars for the BBJ?

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