Sitting with 3800 in front of me in 2/5 effective stacks 1600

Utg+2 solid lag raises to 30

Donk cutoff and button call

I 3bet in the BB to 165

Utg+2 4bets to 350

Cutoff and button fold

Now what?

I've made up my mind to shove or fold bc I hate just calling oop, can I really fold here?

Hand history on villain? If none, I'd probably fold.. If he's an old man I'd definitely fold...

IMO he is more likely to have AA here than QQ and I know for sure he is not doing this with JJ or AK
So it basically comes down to 6 combos of AA or QQ each with an overlay of 255 in equity

I'd like more of a description of this player, although LAG certainly doesn't make me want to fold.

He's an old reg but a very good player and have played a lot of FL with him. 7 stars guy with dough. I just don't see why he wouldn't smoothy my 165 and shove the flop. But then again my hand screams KK or QQ and he may want to get it in now in case the scare ace comes on the flop

Don't like shoving, don't think you get called by worse for that size of a shove/that deep. Don't like folding either. Call. Yeah you're OOP but w/e maybe you hit a K super deep, maybe you hit a low flop and you would've gone with it anyways but now he stacks off with JJ-QQ if he happened to 4bet them pre. Even if we're purely set-mining, implied odds make it ok.

If he's truly a LAG as you say ... you can't fold pre. The only way such a thought should even be considered is if you've got a lengthy history with villain and he's never four-bet you without AA or KK.

Without any more info on villain, I think a flat call here is warranted. Though if the flop comes out 10 high you're probably playing for stacks regardless.

NOT ENUFF TO REALLY GO ON HERE. what doesw villain think of you? Hes old and lag?

anyhow, flat and play poker.

Yea more info....

But I agree flat

Flat as I would do with 100% of the hands i´m continuing with. Why wouldn´t he do this with AK or JJ if he flats he has to worry about CO and BTN coming in as well.

Depending on your image, villain might thing you are trying a squeeze play with a wide range, since, after your raise, he has 2 players to act after him.

If your image is such, then check/call and call any non-A flop, and shove any non-A turn if he checks behind.

If you don't think he can put you on a squeeze play line, then you need to consider what his "normal" 4-betting range is.

I know some live players for whom that is JJ+, AK, but this guy sounds more savvy than that.

But we can't fold KK preflop. Ever (unless, I suppose, villain exposed his AA hand). HU, I think we are showdown bound, unless an A comes off.

Lots of good advice above, allow me to add the following.

I keep a poker journal and one of the things i've gotten into the habit of doing is tracking 3bet, 4bet, and 5bet shoves between 2 to 3 villains and seeing just how often it is AA vs KK.

I don't have a big enough sample size to declare definitely any stats, but out of around 30 of these types of scenarios tracked, less than 50% are AA vs KK.

Lots of times its JJ-AA or someone spazzing out with 88 thinking they can outplay you or someone over valuing AK because its sooottttteeeeedddddd

Now, am I saying this villain doesn't have AA or that AA isn't in his range? No. He could very well have AA.

What i'm saying is that when this happens, its not automatically AA vs. KK. Because of all those other times its not AA vs. KK, i have resided myself to NEVER fold KK pre to 99% of the players I play against.

The only way I ever fold KK in this spot is vs the world's nittiest nit who I know never 3bets or 4bets without AA.

Human memory is decieving. We only remember all the times our KK ran up against AA and we conviently forget all the times are KK crushed some donk overvaluing AK, QQ, or JJ. Another possibility is that we are up against a thinking player that is reading us wrong and thinks his TT+ is good. That happens as well.

I find this fascinating and have been doing a little private study of it on my own. I have a guy who routinely does this. He gets completely unwound when he starts with AK, flops Axx, and a QQ runs him down with Q on river. Turn around and get stacks in with TT vs AK and flop is Axx and he catches a T on river and i say "hey, we sucked out on the river, cool", and he emphatically goes " oh no, that doesnt count as a suckout since i started with best hand".

Its amazing all the protective mechanisms at work ensuring that WE think we are better, know best, superior etc. which are really just an illusion to the truth.

Seeing and understanding these things makes it much easier to understand why we always feel like we are not winning what we should, running worse than we are (which is almost always the case in most players minds). Ha, i wonder how many players are feeling this way as they read this. haha

How many people have you heard say they were running hot at poker? Ive only heard a handful in a decade. Even guys are total heaters will say crap like "yeah, im runnin pretty good, but i still lost that big hand yadi yadi the other day". lol

Question for you DG.

This is exactly how I think about KK and agree 100% with all of it but with an aside i.e. this is exactly how I think about KK with 100BB's effective.

The problem here is that we're over 300BB's deep against a solid LAG not a LAG-tard.

Also a 3bet from the BB to a UTG raise is telegraphing huge strength.

So, Imo this villain's actions have now polarized his range to pretty much two scenarios - either a 4bet bluff or AA/KK.

Is this reasoning sound do you think or is it too black and white?

I bet the "dont pass" on much of any bluff range.

shoving seems like the worst option for sure, I am prob flatting here you are deep enough to try and spike a king or possibly get to showdown. Even if villain is lag you say he is decent so I am not sure how crazy he is going with QQ here if you call.

that said your two positions in this hand are typically spots were others dont really get out of line (assuming they are both thinking)

What?

I'm a bit confused. A solid LAG would have no problem playing some poker preflop and establishing a certain image with a 3bet or 4bet based on the right situation.

IMO, I get more worried about AA with a nit or a TAG than a LAG.

To answer your question about the impact of stack depth. THe basic principle is to bet in such a way that a worse hand can call you. When you are around 100BB and the pissing contest starts, pots can escalate as such where worse hands can call a preflop shove for 100BB.

That is "usually" not the case for 300BB. Unless villain is aggro or an ego maniac. I have seen ego maniacs shove preflop for 300BB+ because they could not bear the thought of being "outplayed".

Back to your question though. Being 300BB deep doesn't magically mean villain is only 4betting with AA. It will still be villain dependant.

In this situation with KK, since you are so deep, 5betting is an option.

Take a step back and think about it. Why not 5bet? The aversion is that most of the time we aren't deep enough to 5bet and 3betting/4betting is enough to close the action.

Flatting likewise is not terrible. Flat and play the board texture and your opponent.

In fact, if you flat and paint hits, good chance AA will slow down right?.

As I see this situation, there are some options here. Similarly, OP was pretty sparse on the details for such an important decision. I don't mean to cop out here, but how I'd play KK in this spot is extremely villain dependant. THe deeper you are, the more complicated the game becomes.

Trying to simplify our options as either shove or fold is a little bit on the fishy side for being this deep. I think we just have to play some poker in this spot. Flat and play post flop and utilize those awesome poker skillz.

Protip:

Someone isnt a LAG because they are just LOOSE or AGGRESSIVE, but both, if he really is LAG, i dont see what your problem is, from what it sounds like you think hes TAG, and therefore you expect him to wake up with AA more often than not, if hes TAG, then say that, a true LAG, (which is really hard to come by live...) this is a no-brainer.

You dont have to just shove or fold either, im probably just clicking it back, making it 700 or something to that effect. It sets up a nice flop shove (effective stacks).

Now why couldnt you think of that?

umm, I think we need a pretty big read to know a good player period is going to 4bet us here light, and tbh, imo getting 4bet here by QQ/JJ/AK is pretty light 300bb+ deep.

TAG/LAG doesn't really matter in someone's 4bet bluffing range live, imo. Their ranges are pretty damn similar.

so our options are
Fold: Prolly best option as 90% of the time the guy is going to have AA here.
Call: well we are pretty much setmining, and losing the rest of our stack when we don't flop a king, and the flop comes like 7 high.
5bet: Pretty spewy as it is unlikely the guy is going to flat or shove with worse, so we are pretty much trying to grab the dead money with a 5bet.


edit - Gross spot, but I think a fold is prolly best unless you have seen this guy stack off with QQ/AK for 300bb+ before. Or if the guy 4bets a stupid amount, especially against a 3bet from the blinds against an EP raise.