I am sitting 1/2 NLHE 9 handed at my local card hole.

Villain is in his 20s and I have played with him a few times before (about 18 hours total). He is a solid player capable of making moves, will cbet the flop on a paired board, plays his position well and tends to be on the solid tight side on this night. I think his opinion of me is that of a tighter player.

SB ($165) <---- Hero
BB ($400) Villain

Dealt to Hero A K

Folds around, Hero bets $14, BB Raises to $30, Hero Calls

FLOP ($60) 10 J K

Hero stalls then checks, Villain bets $25

Hero tanks for about 15 sec then Raises AI $105 more

Villain Tanks…. Folds

Could I have gotten more value from a call here instead of a CR AI?

Thanks!

Preflop: Why are you just calling oop HU vs a solid player with a drawing hand that won't get action unless ur beat?

Flop:
Why are you raising all-in?

Is it for value (will he call with hands you beat?)

or

Is it as a bluff (will he fold hands that beat/tie you?)


Please explain.

Shove OTF is fine if his 3b range is wider than most.

Donkey xote:
- I think there are def hands Villain can have here that don't beat me if I hit.

= AK is as you say a Drawing hand, My plan/intentions against this player was to Call PF and if I hit the flop to CR him.

For value. I had only $100 behind on the flop and 3betting his $25 would make my raise $75 so why not just get the rest in.. also Pot was $85 at that point and I had $100 behind so...

I guess my question is would anyone C/Call here for value and risk a free card...

Also are your implying you would re pop this preflop? I think the same issues apply if he calls the 3bet and you miss/hit the flop.

Thanks!

Get it in pre blind against blind. It's noe even close! You are oop and he could easily think you are spewing.

I agree, why are you flatting pre oop. What is your plan when you flop 2 overcards and he cbets? Check/jam? Just get it in pre. Or chop if there's rake.

So we Don't care about PP's ever which is in the V's range it's either take it down pre flop or flip for stacks? (simplified)

How does this make sense in a cash game?

your position and description of yourself and villain make this a good spot to 4b.

-you are oop, villain knows you are playing tight
-villain has position on you and plays it well, capable of making moves
-you have fold eq and still hold good equity if called

you will make mistakes on future streets playing oop by folding the best hand to cbets etc etc.

not to mention this is a bvb battle+you arent full stack so villain in theory can get it in lighter than usual

there is nothing wrong with taking it down preflop, you win the money.

why are we not chopping blind vs. blind? i do this 99.9 percent of the time.

I just wanted to add this, and I do agree with the 4 bet as outlined by
MillerWhite... as a perfectly viable option, maybe even the predominant one in poker.

But I can't help but keep thinking about this.

- One of the general principles in poker is to get your money in good with a higher edge over your opponent. Even if the edge is very small.

- And if we assume by 4betting here that when we do get called we are against at least 10-10+ of which we are 46% to their 53% against preflop.

Aren't we just getting it in bad here PF if they call? (I am not accounting for fold equity.)

Whereas if we just call and see a flop, now we have a choice, muck if we miss or bet for value if we hit with the opportunity to get our money in with the better edge.

I am missing something? Or does this just lead toward more conservative play?

BB does not chop.

knowing this, i'd just ship it over the top of his $30 preflop ... he knows you know he doesn't chop. so you are going to raise a lot there. then he's going to 3-bet frequently. just ship pre in that situation.

you are underestimating the value of position, its everything. when you say things like 'when i hit i will value bet' and ' when i miss i can muck' are classic examples of how good players can take advantage of you, especially when they have position. like i said before by playing oop you will be making a mistake a high % of the time by folding the best hand(AK high) and saying 'when i miss i muck' just highlights that. also, when playing oop it is also much harder to extract value versus playing in position.

the risks of playing oop go on and on beyond this. you also cant just not account for fold equity, thats silly.

villain could potentially call with AQs for reasons i stated in an earlier post

edit:also fwiw position becomes more important as the stacks get deeper. what you are describing is fit or fold poker, and this is very easily exploitable.

Miller: I get what you are saying.

- The bits I outlined about "mucking and value" were just my plan for that particular flop against that opponent. My objective was to limit my mistakes by having a plan before I get involved.

So with the fold equity I am an actual a favorite to shove/4bet against Villain
pre?

Is there a calculator/site that I can use to look at fold equity in hands or a rule of thumb to roughly know haw much it adds? (sorry if that comes off dumb) I am curious to know as we are always using shortcuts at the table.

Also I totally agree with you about position it is everything... I'm not folding AK either in position or out, so your saying basically it's a 4bet/shove in that spot (for you) always in this situation?

Thanks!

C'mon that is almost a flame/troll...

obv. I am thinking about it...

nothing is automatic, everything depends on various factors. so i cant just say i always 4b/shove here because its not true, but in this spot you showed us i am happy to 4b/shove.

hands do not hold fold eq, a bet or raise holds X amount of fold eq, again depending on inf number of things. i think to touch on this a little AK holds 'blockers' to AA and KK which limits the combinations villain can have.

and the edit i meant nothing bad, sorry if it came off wrong!

i would also immediately move to the open seat directly to this guy's left ASAP.

With all due respect, if you totally agreed that position is everything, you would not be accepting a situation where you are out of position with a drawing hand in a shallow 3 bet pot.

The MAIN REASON we get it in here is because negating his positional advantage is the most profitable thing we can do with our hand.

ez ez ship pf IMO, at least after you open so big preflop. You want to give hands like 66 a chance to fold and you don't want to have to flop TP (and end up losing to the c-bet of AJ, KQ, whatever), you also want to see all 5 cards. I find people that don't chop and are young, typically will be very loose in their blinds which makes the 4-bet even easier. Older guys that refuse to chop are usually very passive in the blinds and just love seeing flops.