@ daytona beach kennel club

5-10 hands played so far and table just opened so everyone is fresh , first time here so no history on anyone

fish in MP1 limps
i raise 25 CO with JJ
young kid thats supposedly a 5/10 reg as well min 3 bets me to 45 while hes on button

hero???

kid has raise 3 times before
2 times UTG
very first hand during the table he opens AQs utg folds around and he show
outside of those 3 times he raised he hasnt played any hands yet

This is small enough to take the flop.

Huh? Game size and stack sizes would be needed before we can offer any advice here.

everyone is 500 deep.

are we planing purely to setmine here and check/folding any overcard/non jack flops?

Can you post the game stakes and stack sizes?

.. I don't see how anyone can make any kind of comment on this hand without that information.


Also relevant - some information on the mp1 limper... is he someone who is limping weak and will fold on missed flops?

Can't fold, 4betting is an overplay, so lets just flat and play post flop. We have to be willing to station on lots of flops though (this obviously isn't a setmine)

The assumption to me is 2-5 with ample money. I doubt OP would have a post if the stacks were 200 or whatever.

Of course not. His clickback can easily be a very good way to regain initiative with literally any two reasonable playable hands. This player should be capable of this without question.

So, 100 BBs deep? I'm not sure how you define ample money, this sure doesn't look that deep to me....

I would 4-bet this to ~135 and then fold to a shove. If he calls, I think you're probably looking to 2/3-pot and call any shove. In this particular situation, a flop with 2 or more of A-K-Q is going to put him in a dominant position given a 10's+ 12% 3-bet/flatting range. Essentially any other flop i'd be looking to get it in on, your fold equity and equity against his range is going to make this profitable for you in the long run.

+1, plus it might stop him from 3betting us all the time in future pots

this was my thought process too, cant fold, not good enough to 4bet so i flated and played a flop

this is what happened



MP folds i snap flat his click back

pot is now 45+45+5+5+2= 102

board is now a34r

i check
villian bets 60
i fold.

fresh 5/10 opened up right after the dealer finished his down and i never saw him again

Im not set mining so all i need is enough stack that we dont want to simply stick it in----and im fine with playing post for this tiny amount. 4 bet folding is totally ruining a nice hand which could have been played much better post. (Thats an assumption also as you have to estimate how well you can play postflop)

This villain making this tiny 3 bet (co vs BTN) can easily be doing this with QTs just taking the initiative back OR he couldhave a monster. CO vs BTN and he is an active player---Im not giving him the monster range here often BUT if you 4 bet small he will float the 4 bet often. Now you have an exploded pot with a marginal hand OOP. That is not a good plan.

yes

given his 100% open raise and what I'm assuming is very agressive play, I don't think a 4bet is at all overplaying JJ here.

So I'd like to hear what your planned strategy is post-flop. 57% of flops will have at least one overcard,
and ~76% of boards will contain one by the river.

So if it come up low, What's our move? Simple pot size bet? And when the dreaded overcards drop, what's a good line to take when they do show? Stay cool and just put in another PSB? or simply c/c c/c c/c?

I'm not sure how often we should be flatting here, we likely should be at least some of the time; but it is definitely a "simpler" plan to 4-bet/fold to a raise, and I am kind of leaning toward that play here. Though you are probably not using JJ equity effectively, I find it so difficult to play these spots. I would love to see some discussion on solid post-flop strategy for this.

I don't like making plays for the sake of "simplicity". If you wanted that, then just open shove your JJ. It will win you the blinds over 90% of the time from the cutoff.

Postflop is complex, that's why many people say "call and play poker". That's what we're doing. It's not going to be easy, and you're not always going to win the pot - nobody gave you the divine right to win because you were dealt JJ anyway (you don't often hear people say "I got my jacks cracked").

4bet/folding is accomplishing what, exactly? We're not getting better to fold, and probably not worse to call. The best we're doing is getting AK/AQ to fold their equity share in the pot (which isn't terrible, IF you tell me that AK/AQ are always folding. If he's getting it in with AK, then it's not very good to 4bet/fold JJ, is it?).

We're calling to stay ahead of his range. By 4bet folding, we assure ourselves to be behind his continuing range, or we fold the best hand.

As for this flop, if you feel villain is light 3betting enough, you could call this $60 bet and see if he fires again. If you don't feel villain is light 3betting very often, then you could have confidently folded JJ preflop.

I hear this often lol.

But yeah, if we are just going to c/f all flops with an over card, c/c, the c/f none over card flops, then I like the 4bet/fold strat better than flatting. I mean honestly, the flop comes A34r and we c/f? We are leaking tons money in this spot... He's probably cbetting this flop a with his entire range.

But I would say JJ is quite possibly behind a reasonable 3-betting range. Let's take a conservative 3-bet range including a couple of Ace-rags as 3-bet bluffs:
Opponents 3-bet range {TT+, AJs+ AKo, A9s, A5s}
Then pre-flop we have ~49% Equity against this range.

But, more often than not we will be loosing equity post flop.
If the board comes K,7,3 rainbow, then our JJ holding equity against the above 3-bet range drops to ~40%, and if an Ace drops our equity drops off a cliff.
While if the board comes all low, our equity comes up much less than the more likely downside when over-cards show.

So the question is, what is your plan post-flop when you flat the 3-bet?

This would b a long story. yes, the flop will contain an overcard and I count on it mostly. The rest I leave with having said that you have to play well postflop, otherwise simply fold it. Turning it into a pure bluff by 4 betting is just poor play IMO.

I would agree with you we should probably be calling the 3-bet here a good percent of the time, but I would be interested in getting any insight on a typical game plan for flatting JJ out of position to a 3-bet, particularly when over-cards drop, which they will most of the time. Just wondering how more experienced players approach this spot?

Lol@"snap flat"

Classic scared money JJ.