Raise pre is fine and good. I'm never limping here unless I'm positive someone will raise and I can limp/re-raise.

Against five players, check and evaluate.

(Flop bet is too small if you are going to bet. It screams scared.)

I never limp here, but I'm not scared to have five callers for $31 each on the flop. I much prefer it to nine players for $6 each. And if I expect five callers, I'm raising higher than $31!!!

I understand that the small sizing can get us in awkward spots like this a small % of the time, but I can't envision any line w/o serious drawbacks.

Also, isn't it arguable that V will also be put in a tougher spot w/ their marginal/medium SDV hands vs this bet sizing? Obviously people bluff not all that much @ these stakes, but I've seen many instances of weak players making 'obligation CBs' w/ their AK/AQ in highly inhospitable spots (possibly the two most overplayed bluff candidates @ these stakes too iyam) -- so I'm sure many regs have seen this/internalized it to some extent as well.

Not arguing though. Just my two cents. Could be way off.

Checking vs. five players is the best line. I would check with most of my range. The small bet just let's people bluff you and if they are not bluffing, it makes you want to commit. It also enables Villains to call with hands like J9 or 97 or even AT or a poorly played AQ, etc., that can catch up, although you want them calling but not so cheaply.

It is just so unlikely that you have an 8 and much more likely that one of them does, so TT is your only really good hand here. Very easy for V to raise as a bluff and you should be folding to a raise unless you have some amazing read on V.

If you check and V bets, now you need to make a decision. Depending on size, I might call one time a re-evaluate, but I'm probably done with the hand. It's just not a good flop vs. five players. It would suck for AA just as badly.

The thing I don't like about checking is that it may give the world (who combined have a world of overcard / gutshot / OESD / set outs against us) a free card; if we have the best hand, this is a disaster in a huge SPR ~2 pot (especially considering everyone who is currently behind likely can't call even a small bet which would have protected our pot).

But I also think pretty much everything we do sucks, also noting I was one of the few idiots who would have jammed the flop into the ~nuts, which is yet another reason I try to avoid these spots altogether.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Avoid what spot? Playing JJ? What would you have done pre-flop with AA or KK?

I like the idea of a flop check for sure (Java proposing something similar). But as GG points out, there is something to be said for betting & simply folding out the random KQ/AQ equity, & to a lesser extent AJ/KJ, etc.

But I get what you're saying. Thanks.

Pretty standard limp/evaluate for me preflop (mostly reraising against anyone but the tighter raisers, and of course always reraising with AA/KK). It sets up a much easier to play spot in both cases (whether it is limped around or raised), and overall I believe "much easier" equates to "much more profitable" (although I know not all will agree with that statement, but then again they probably didn't just shove into the nuts like I did on the flop).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Limp/evaluate w/ AA/KK? Wow, just, wow. I'm glad you make the game easier for yourself Of course, it makes it easier for your opponents, too, unless they are complete droolers.

How do you limp/evaluate from SB?

It was a button straddle.

Maybe re-read what I posted.

Gismywritingreallythatdifficulttocomprehend?G

OK, I did. You said you would limp/evaluate with AA/KK (and limp/re-raise, but that's even more transparent and easier to play against). And if you mean I don't understand the "easier" means "more profitable," I agree with your parenthetical: (although I know not all will agree with that statement, but then again they probably didn't just shove into the nuts like I did on the flop).

Trust me, I play against a lot of players who play the way you do, and it's the easiest part of my night. If you play against droolers and this system works, I'm happy for you.

Of course, if you limp AA/KK here, you are still going broke if you shove the flop

I have no idea how what I wrote can be misread, but just to clarify:

I'm always reraising AA/KK (which is what I wrote). Truthfully, if it's going to be HU, I might just limp/call to trap an aggro player some small percentage of the time (but I digress).

I'm limping to evaluate JJ (mostly reraising unless a nittier type person has raised).

GsighG

I don't think GG ever said he was going to Limp/evaluate w/ AA/KK. He clearly said he would always reraise AA/KK. Just wanted to clarify that.

+1