This is the second hand I have posted on here and am going to continue until I get better at decision making while I am at the table. It seems to be difficult to translate thought process to game time decisions at times. Posting these hands will keep me accountable for my bad play/decision making.

$3/$5 game and I am OTB. 3 limpers in front of me and the CO folds. I look down at JJ and raise to $25. SB, BB, UTG and UTG +1 all call.

SB - $500
BB - $220
UTG - $600+
UTG+1 - $450
Me - $475

Flop is J97ccc. Checks to me and I check.

I checked because I thought big club draw would call and turn club would be action killer. If no club turn I can bet 80% pot and take it down large % of time. Smaller made flush will shove over me. If board pairs on turn or non club blank on turn I might get looked up a lot lighter than a flop c-bet. Don't want to get blown off hand with c-bet.

Turn is an 8d.

Checks to me and I bet $85. Folds to sb who shoves for another $110 and folds back to me. What is the best option here?

Feel free to butcher these thoughts as needed. I am posting to learn.

bet the flop and evaluate based on who calls/raises/folds. never checking a board that wet last to act with top set. you will get action by flushes/straights/draws/pair+draws/2ps/sets

OTF i would expect straights/sets/2 pairs to raise/ and combos depending on the villain. you did nothing to further narrow down the villain's ranges, after checking the flop, you might as well check turn too hoping to boat up on the river.

based on turn actions:
getting 3.6:1, we have 10 outs, but could have less, estimate ~16-20% vs the shoving range...fold

Betting the flop to narrow down the villian's ranges is what I should have done. I wasn't thinking of it that way but that makes a ton of sense to me. If someone shoves over me then I can let it go or make a decision based on that specific player. Thanks for the feedback.

I can't fathom folding here without a perfect read that villain only does this with a flush.

We need 24% equity to call off (calling off size divided by pot size plus calling off size) and with top set we have that versus any range that includes hands beyond a flush (like straights, two pair, sets, one pair + a club).

Somebody much smarter than me once said that we should always include 5% spaz factor when considering these things (because live players just seem to lose their mind and do something over the top stupid about that often).

cardsngolfn: again, bigger preflop raise. Bet the flop with intention of getting stack in. Value, value, value.

Jacked, I couldn't find the fold button here either. Too many hands I thought might c/shove as either a bluff or with 2 pair thinking they were good. I called and SB tabled QTo. Easy game.

I know this is results oriented but it makes more sense to me to c-bet for value and if i get raised by bigger stack than SB then evaluate. If SB c/shoves my c-bet then I don't think I could ever fold. I know he isn't c/shoving in that spot with that hand after the fact but in general against his range of hands I don't think I can lay it down if folded back to me. thoughts?

Bet flop no doubt. SB prob doesn't fold anyway but you want to make players pay to draw NOT give them free cards. You still have 7 outs ott and 10 otr if shoves on. It's always easier to make decisions when you push the action. I may check the turn after the 8 to try and boat up though.

what makes you think the weaker parts of villains range is checking 2x to x/shove?

2p is not check/shoving

basically we are against flushes/straights

dont really expect to ever be shown 2p/one pair spazzing

not sure sets are check shoving the turn either

As a rule in thumb, top set is just unfoldable. Trying to come up with situations where you should fold it is probably not the best way to spend your energy right now (because you have bigger leaks that need your immediate attention).

You can put the range of hands that you think certain villains will c/r you on this flop (the range will vary by villain... some will have only made flushes, some will never have made flush as they only slow play; others will include combo draw hands such as one pair + a club or a straight/flush draw; others will include sets and two pair). This is where the psychology of poker comes in, we don't play hands in a vacuum and you must have a decent idea of how your villain thinks and what they are doing.

Then, the math comes in: You use observation and psychology to aid you in building a range for villain and then put that information to real-world use (pokerstove is invaluable for this). Check your equity versus villain's range and see how it compares to your pot equity (amount to call divided by pot + amount to call). Make decision accordingly.

Don't worry too much about the check raise until it actually happens. This is fear, again.

If somebody check raises you while you are holding a set and stacks aren't super duper deep, then, pretty much regardless of board texture, you should get a stiffy and shove.

Do the pokerstove homework when you're at home for some common situations that you're not sure about, this way you'll already have a good idea of what to do when it happens at the table.

Oh, and preflop, just make double the pot to be your rule of thumb raising size when raising for value (unless you're first to open the pot, in which case raise as much as you think a worse hand will call... 4x, 5x, 6x, whatever).

We don't know the range, that's my point.

Assuming villain has only a flush here (or only a flush or straight) is unwarranted. We need a really good read to narrow like that.

Against such a range it's really really close to a call... if we're without the solid read that we're up against exactly that range then folding is a disaster.

5 way pot, 4 to a straight and 3 to a flush. pretty sure someone shows up with a straight at worst quite often

more likely to see a spazz by villain hero-calling on these types of boards then shipping it in light

Believe it or not, posting hands is fine, but if you really want to improve your game you need to CRITIQUE the hands that others post. A lot of noobs feel like they aren't qualified to do so and thus they shy away from critiquing but they shouldn't. Simply say, "Hey guys I'm new but here is what I think you should do and why..."

trust me, if you look at my post history and thread count you will see that I start very few threads on here but critique a lot. reason I do it is because critiquing makes me think about the game which helps my own game...

Every table has a "threshold" that they will call or fold. What we have to do as winning players is figure out that threshold. In this case, you raised $25 and got 4 callers. This is an indication that at this table your threshold for pain is higher than normal, thus you can raise more. Make it $35 - $40 with your strong value hands if this particular table is calling so liberally.

This is the reason you SHOULD BET FLOP!!! You want to bet flop because you want the club draw to call. You also have more equity on the flop than you do on the turn. Also, the board is pretty wet and there are a ton of turn cards that can either kill your action or kill your hand...

So we bet to both charge draws and protect our equity vs hands that have horrible equity but can still out draw us (like 83


smaller flushes are not shoving flop. usually smaller flushes want to peel one card off on turn and will shove turn.


Dear god that turn card is pretty bad. Makes a billion straight draw combos, any Tx hand as well as 65 straights...

You should have checked back turn, or put another way, if you bet turn what hand can call? I mean, are your villains really going to call this wet of a board with a hand like A8

Also, the board is so wet that villains can/should figure out there is a lot of fold equity and thus can/will raise or shove as a semi-bluff...

When we have majority equity we want to get more money in the pot. When we have minority equity we want to limit the amount of money we put in the pot ESPECIALLY if we are on a draw and have no fold equity. Well, believe it or not, our set has now turned into a fullhouse draw. We are drawing to a fullhouse now and we need the board to pair on river. We are most likely behind now so we want to pot control, keep pot as small as possible and in this case that means 100% checking this turd of a turn back and hoping we pair on river.

As played, since we are drawing and SB shoves over the top of us, this now becomes a super simple math problem.

If we have the correct odds to draw, then we call, if we do not have the correct odds to draw, then we fold.

I'm too lazy to do the math right now but shooting from the hip we don't have the right odds to call so its a fold and kick in the nuts (KITN) for betting turn on the world's wettest board after we show weakness on the flop.

[QUOTE] This is good advice and I will start doing this sooner than later.

I haven't been adjusting well with my bring in. My thoughts were to keep it the same when opening to not give hand strength away. That is likely a flawed thought process as I want to get the most money in possible with a better hand.

I puked a little and thought I had the right odds to call it off but I NEED TO DO THE MATH on pokerstove.

You should have checked back turn, or put another way, if you bet turn what hand can call? I mean, are your villains really going to call this wet of a board with a hand like A8

This was late in the session and I was frustrated. Not any excuse but me honestly assessing my play to get better. This turn card was a "turd of a turn" and I was just not willing to give up my hand to his line even though it was so strong with that wet board.

appreciate the critique.

[QUOTE=cardsngolfin;39658587] This type of attitude will get you far. GL.

[QUOTE=AllJackedUp;39658647] Thanks for the comment. I am done blaming losing sessions on a bad run of cards or bad luck. I am in a slump and am motivated to get out of it!

Start with c-betting flop.

Thinking is backwards. if you think a big club draw will call (which it obv will), bet and make him put $ in behind. If the turn isn't a club, why do you want to take it down? You should want value, not turn top set into a bluff...

Krzysztof Ostaszewski is an actuary professor and says that if you ever need to think on an actuary test you're in deep **** (I may be paraphrasing). But the idea is the same, it's what I try to do at least. Memorize every thread I can and have the (thousands of) situations banked in my mind so it's just recalling at the table, not thinking.

I think pre is fine. A slightly bigger raise is okay but I don't think $25 is too small in a limped pot.

Obviously bet flop. You want draws to call.

Betting the turn is terribad. Five ways to the turn and any 10 makes a straight. Just check and hope to boat up.

If river is blank and gets checked to you, value bet. If villain leads out river you probably have to call a normal size bet but could definitely find a fold.

This is the goal. Try to get the work done before I get to the table so I minimize mistakes by folding with good equity or check for the wrong reasons on a flopped top set. Appreciate the input.

[QUOTE] This is what I need to do away from the table as well as post on here to get good reasoning for my actions. This range makes sense and knowing the equity is something i have not put the time into until now.