eh when I first read the hand I thought the shove was fine just the first bet didn't make much sense to me and had a few people I talked with say the same thing. Not being results oriented about it and in fact this hand being shown down almost argues that a shove is actually worse. If he folded it'd make it look a lot better.

typing long posts that only reiterate my previous point. so I'm going to stop so the thread will die. fwiw I don't like the turn bet. and the shove is either good or awful depending on assessment of villain. I guess my thoughts are OP did not give me enough info to think it's good, but whatever you guys play more live than me and might understand what tag-fish tend to do in these games better than me.

They don't often check twice with big made hands on wet boards in 3-way bloated pots that include a fish and a brick wall recreational player who was pfr but declined to c-bet flop last to act... After the flop gets checked around, it's free value to lead turn, and only the sneakiest/fanciest of villains will check again with a hand that figures to be best due to the unlikelihood that either opponent will bet/continue.

Def agree that this thread has run it's course though...

Well by checking back the turn your hand has a worse chance of winning at showdown. I think your being results orientated because he c/r the turn, but if he c/f turn as he will do almost always then its a normal hand not worthy of being posted.

I think checking back that turn is awful remember were not 24 tabling anymore and trying to keep our w$sd looking great. Were playing 1 table and trying to make the most money we can while getting 20-30 hands an hr, and checking back that turn after 2 players check twice is just bad imo.

Unless your calling a river bet on blanks, but I'm pretty sure 90% of you are done with the hand.

what? who folds anything third pair or better to a turn bet? what games are you playing in?

and god can we please quit the "you online 24 table robots better learn how to think through hands" bull **** to a minimum. I haven't made one critical comment about a live player and how their lack of experience both in quantity of play and time against competent opponents should impact their analysis of these situations. it isn't relevant to the discussion. If i'm wrong then it doesn't matter whether the person who proves me wrong has never played one hand, or is durrrrr, I'm still wrong. And same if I'm right.

the only thing that matters in this situation is if guys with a ton of live experience say that without a read they tend to put most tagfish into certain standard expected categories for plays and ranges. But the only person I saw do that was DGAF who basically bolded my point/question in my last post to say that yeah based on his perception of most TAGfish would not check a good hand here twice.

so tired of the live vs online BS. wish everyone would stop being so insecure.

[QUOTE=thepizzlefosho;26498242]what? who folds anything third pair or better to a turn bet? what games are you playing in?

and god can we please quit the "you online 24 table robots better learn how to think through hands" bull **** to a minimum. I haven't made one critical comment about a live player and how their lack of experience both in quantity of play and time against competent opponents should impact their analysis of these situations. it isn't relevant to the discussion. If i'm wrong then it doesn't matter whether the person who proves me wrong has never played one hand, or is durrrrr, I'm still wrong. And same if I'm right.




Awesome how cleverly that was slipped in though.
(Everyone knows its true deep down)

(hey don't throw stones unless you want to catch a brick is what my dad used to tell me)

I like that one.

My takeaway from seeing a lot of really good analysis on hand 1 (thanks guys) is that it was a coin flip and I took the really wild high variance side of that flip. If this is true than I am extremely happy with my play as I always want to take the spazz/variance side of every flip.

Maybe I stated it wrong. I'm mostly an online player almost strictly the last few years. What I meant was when you see 10k hands a day it's not that big of a deal to make close folds or just play straight forward most of the time, and win plus you get some form of rakeback, but live you have less of an opportunity to pass up small spots just do to the amount of hands you see in a session. I don't think just because some would play it differently it makes it wrong. Thats why the games not solved. I don't think anyone would ever question the fact that online is much tougher then live it's not even close.

I mean whether we're playing live or online we should be taking the most +ev play right? Shouldn't matter if it's live, online, or what. We're all 1-tabling when we post in a 2p2 thread and get a lot more time than we do even live to evaluate the situation so we should be looking to make the best most +ev play regardless of whether it's an online or live hand. I think people arguing against the turn bet are not saying "eh let's wait for a better spot" we're saying we don't think the bet itself is going to be superior to checking.

Maybe I'm wrong but having 10k hands to 200 hands in a session has to mean something. It could be checking is more +ev in the long run, but you will never hit the long run playing live. I personally try and squeeze out every dollar playing live, and maybe that means not the most +ev, but its going to win more money now. I just don't see how checking the turn with that board with the action as it was can ever be better then betting there especially if your bet jamming.

Also, somewhere itt limon signs off on the line in hand 1 as well, and he doesn't seem spewy in the slightest...

And yeah, poker players (especially live, where sample sizes are lol and variance is king due to the snail like pace) are the most insecure bunch I can think of. Everyone thinks everyone else is bad, can't be a winning player, etc. Every tag thinks every lag is just an aggro fish, and every lag thinks every tag is just a heartless nit... It's pretty telling imo of how important confidence is to playing poker (even if it means generating false confidence by auto-discounting the abilities of everyone around you), and it's so prevalent in the forums. My personal favorites are the guys who flame every line/analysis, but NEVER provide their own line/analysis. cantweallgetalongrant/

(pizzle, you seem pretty chill, I hope they open that internet back up for you)

i've been playing small stakes plo online this week and I think I've found an equally insecure group of poker players. lol every plo hand is basically a flip and every hand these guys get to SD they want to tell everyone else how they are all basically terrible.

i guess people just like to wave peens.

fwiw most people who constantly say "wow that's so bad" are usually not that good themselves. Sure confidence is important but not at least thinking about the line used against you and even if they used it badly how it can be used well is a pretty big leak and is going to lead to ignoring a huge part of improving.

I mean... not too classy in the first place to ask to see the hand. Just drag the pot young man!

-----

Like zachhvac said, most of the 2p2 kids that win at poker are actually very cordial and good at live etiquette, though too many embrace the hoodie/headphone/dont talk to the fish routine.

The trolls that you and DGAF had to deal with in the OP were either drug dealers, NVG regs, or broke MTT grinders.

Agreed. On that note, what conclusion have you come to regarding taking villain's line in hand 1 for value? A second check around (absolutely brutal) or a bet/fold from a hand that would have paid us off 2 streets had we led has me refraining unless stacks are a lot deeper...

edit: thanks for the clarification Clayton. I agree with you and know/have befriended (prior to Black Friday) a lot of good internet players/people. Also, San Diego ftw obv.

the one thing that still is a lock to happen and makes me wince is the internet kids talking shop. it never fails, get 2 internet kids at the same table who are friends and they will want to talk strat of the prior hands they played together and the prior stuff they saw, and what they would have done etc etc etc while these old guys cant get a word in with each other. now instead of people talking normal person conversations and gambling, they're talking about poker and playing poker, and subconsciously playing better/more focused and the environment is less casual.

lord help me I am probably going to get a brain tumor for having to deal with the 2nd grade talk of "omg i folded T6s I would have hit a straight on your aces" but if there's 1 thing I've come to appreciate from some of the more weathered commerce pros it's that they know how to make it entertaining for the fish.

this is definitely true. I have a friend who donks around in the micros but asks me a ton of poker stuff all the time. we're playing casually at the woods one night and he wants to come sit with me because he's been drinking and thinks it will be more fun. as soon as he sits down on my right he wants to start asking me about hands and players all the time. And I keep trying to change the subject and not be a dick but you just can't do that at the table. first because it makes for a ****ty game, and second because it isn't fair for the other guys for me to be giving him info. tbh what I've found is that when I play live I hate having friends in the game. it just ****s with what I'm trying to do which is watch other people, focus on making good plays, and take people's money.

After a while you will really appreciate having exactly 1 friend at the table. All you do is make fun of each other, squash any strat talk that arises and do whatever it takes to get people gambling. It makes time go by sooooo much faster... My friend and I dropped by Commerce at 6 am the other day and the 10-20 was full and looked miserable. We went down to 5-10 and got 2 seats at the same table. There were 2 recreational dudes/friends drinking Coronas and just spewing ever so slightly. We quickly joined in on the drinking (twist our arms), showed some bluffs and other spew, and cultivated a loud, party atmosphere. A couple hours later, every pot was 3k+ and the table change list to our table was 10+ deep.

4 years ago we were the innocent but annoying strat talkers with a lot to learn...

Coronas at 6 am is dedication baby! I also very strongly agree with your point about people thinking their way is the best way or in some cases the only way. In that regard poker is like religion, everyone thinks theirs is right or better but in the end we're all just trying to get the same result. Haven't seen you in awhile, all good?

Yeah. I dropped into your neck of the woods late Fri because I had an extra 10k that I wanted to get rid of. Other than that, everything is solid!

I'll be there tomorrow until I lose my standard 4 buyins, so if you want beers you better get there before noon. The 10-20 looks like it has been rocking lately.

I'm not sure what all this friend talk is about. I have no friends at the poker table at all period. I bumhunt my best friend online cause hes so bad, and live I will do everything I can to take every dollar I can from you, because everyones money spends the same to me.