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Initiative Initiative

02-10-2017 , 10:35 PM
Just had a hand which didn't actually go anywhere but I thought would be a good thing to discuss.

I had 97s in MP and my thought process was "If someone raises then I'll call but if it's folded to me then I'll just fold" which seems weird and possibly flawed. I know it's an 'it depends' situation - assume stacks 100bb+ and fairly competent players on either side.

Feels like it's way better to play a weakish drawing hand in position, against a perceived strong range, without the initiative rather than opening with it, but at the same time it seems paradoxical.
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02-10-2017 , 11:08 PM
Multiple limpers to me in LP? I'm usually raisin. Sometimes over limp if non-raisey table and shorty stacks. Sometimes will do same in MP, but less.

I'm usually folding to an EP/MP raise unless deep. If I'm going to play I think harder about 3-betting the more limpers.

Obv opening in LP.

From the blinds I either complete, check or fold and very rarely call a raise with these type hands.

I feel it's best to give yourself as many ways to win the pot/ win bigger pots as possible.
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02-10-2017 , 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pseudonym
Just had a hand which didn't actually go anywhere but I thought would be a good thing to discuss.

I had 97s in MP and my thought process was "If someone raises then I'll call but if it's folded to me then I'll just fold" which seems weird and possibly flawed. I know it's an 'it depends' situation - assume stacks 100bb+ and fairly competent players on either side.

Feels like it's way better to play a weakish drawing hand in position, against a perceived strong range, without the initiative rather than opening with it, but at the same time it seems paradoxical.
So here's the thing about this thought process.

When you say, if it's folded to you you will fold, I assume the reason is because if you play the hand with either a raise or a limp, there are several players behind you who could call, and you'll be out of position.

But when someone else raises in front of you, all those people are still there and if you call a raise you could easily be stuck out of position (both absolute and relative) against them.

Someone putting money into the pot who you have absolute position on doesn't really change the position situation as much as you think. Everyone who had position on you before the raise still has it. Your hand doesn't get more playable because someone opened before you. If you would have open-folded, you should also fold to someone else's raise (unless you see a chance to 3bet or something, but that's not what you seem to be talking about).
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02-11-2017 , 12:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pseudonym
Just had a hand which didn't actually go anywhere but I thought would be a good thing to discuss.

I had 97s in MP and my thought process was "If someone raises then I'll call but if it's folded to me then I'll just fold" which seems weird and possibly flawed. I know it's an 'it depends' situation - assume stacks 100bb+ and fairly competent players on either side.

Feels like it's way better to play a weakish drawing hand in position, against a perceived strong range, without the initiative rather than opening with it, but at the same time it seems paradoxical.
I think 97s in MP is a little loose but not terrible to open. I would open it in some games, but I would fold it to a competent player who raised in EP. Sure, it's nice to see a suited connector in position but you could seriously be behind here to TT-AA and imo suited connectors often require aggressive postflop play when your draws don't pan out.

I'd be more prone to calling with something like that in LP if the pot goes multi-way.
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02-11-2017 , 04:59 AM
I think by calling an early position raise you could win a big pot when you connect and your opponent gives you correct odds if you play fit or fold I don't think we are making money long term with that hand. In the other hand if you come in for a raise your perceived range is stronger and you can win lots of small pots by c-betting and double barreling favorable boards, I think is a hand that plays well post flop but with initiative and possition. I like to raise this kind of hand in late possition over some limpers, I open sometimes but rather isolating limpers that play fit or fold post.
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02-11-2017 , 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeVernon
So here's the thing about this thought process.

When you say, if it's folded to you you will fold, I assume the reason is because if you play the hand with either a raise or a limp, there are several players behind you who could call, and you'll be out of position.

But when someone else raises in front of you, all those people are still there and if you call a raise you could easily be stuck out of position (both absolute and relative) against them.

Someone putting money into the pot who you have absolute position on doesn't really change the position situation as much as you think. Everyone who had position on you before the raise still has it. Your hand doesn't get more playable because someone opened before you. If you would have open-folded, you should also fold to someone else's raise (unless you see a chance to 3bet or something, but that's not what you seem to be talking about).
Yeah, this is all true. I'd had a drink when I made the original post so possibly could have been clearer but my point was that I think I'd rather play a hand like this against an OOP player with a strong narrow range (regardless of future action behind me). I'd also rather not be the aggressor in this situation.

It was an instinctive reaction and I wasn't sure why I had it, which is why I posted, but looking back I think it's to do with comfort. The hand is definitely easier to play as the non-aggressor but just because some situations are more comfortable than others doesn't make them more profitable.
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