I did not say l/r was lolz, I said l/r to 75 is omg lolzzzzzzz

Given the action this is 44 99 all day, possibly the occasional AJdd+ he floated the flop with, but it doesn't make sense for there to be a hand in vills range that connected with the flop that he would take this line with that we beat, all his 9x hands he is just calling

OP, i think your too fixated on villain2 not having any overpairs in his range and not crediting enough 2x in his range. I agree, villain never has JJ+(or almost never) but he could float any A2,32,52(although i doubt he juices it with 52s but its possible) and sometimes K2s and Q2s when the fish called your flop bet or he could have 44.

Those are the hands that have u crushed. Otherwise he's prob trying to take pot away with his nothing range but that could include hands that have good equity vs your tens such as 53, or any turned diamond draw.

Its tough and i prob check either the flop or the turn for pot control just to avoid this situation but if u call the turn bet u must hero call on any river i think against a good player and the river bet is prob going to be in the 200-all in type bet. If u have any reservations about calling off a majority of your stack on your read then just fold the turn .

This thread is a disaster; from the way OP played the hand to some of the advice that has been given (Lapidator).

You played the hand poorly and put yourself in a bad spot. I'm folding here to some villains, to others i'm calling and hoping to check/check river unless I hit a 10 and folding to a river bet if I miss.

Learning points -- think about why you raise and what happens when you do?

Yawn....

agree with ozmosis, cant just straight out fold here. 44 is about the only credilble hand he is repping, 99, JJ+, would normally raise bigger pre imo, 22 limp behind (although 22 is possible, but though to make quads and i´d be a little surprised if he raised and didnt want V1 to come along for the ride.)

A9, 9x makes sense to some people who play it this way to iso and to c/behind otr to set their own price for showdown (which probably isnt even a bad play).

folding is a bit weak in this spot, are we folding anything but sets??? TT is basically the same as AA, but i dont think we´d get that many fold responses if hero somehow played AA this way.

This is what I feel.
I just feel like my hand is completely underrepped. No where in the hand have I given him the idea that I have an over pair. So his value raising range could be behind my actual hand.

and the hits just keep on coming. For the record, if you were somehow dealt into a hand with AA out of position and forced to play it passively preflop, there's nothing wrong with check-folding it in a multiway pot. So yes, TT is the same as AA, but you should still be snapfolding it 90% of the time to a turn raise (like sao said, baluga theorem applies).

It's also completely not the same as AA in that it's beat by 6 combos of JJ that AA isn't. Who cares how weak it is when no one knows what hero folded?

shadowdodger - You bet two streets into a calling station, including a "please call me"-sized underbet on a flush draw turn. Exactly how underrepped is TT here? He's almost never raising worse for value, and it's not worth catching him when he is the one time out of ten (more likely 20+).

you must assume you are always against the nuts.

the vill is not a station in the least bit, re read op

AA's equity against a random hand is 30% greater than it is against four random hands. Sure, it's still above the 50% mark taking this flop 5-handed, but out of position, facing action with no idea where we stand and no plan to get the hand to showdown?

I'm not sure if this is possible, given that anyone competent enough to maintain a database would never butcher a hand like this, but find someone (or multiple someones) who has a HH that contains pots where they limped Aces pre and saw a multiway flop. I guarantee you that they're losing money when those hands go to showdown.

Maybe on a board this dry you can get a couple streets of value or luckbox your way into someone else with a one-pair hand stacking off, but any more coordinated and you're just torching money.

12,519,529 games 4.416 secs 2,835,038 games/sec

Board: 9d 4h 2s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 87.259% 87.16% 00.10% 10911884 12944.50 { AA }
Hand 1: 12.741% 12.64% 00.10% 1582215 12944.50 { random }


10,545,736 games 14.540 secs 725,291 games/sec

Board: 9d 4h 2s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.776% 57.55% 00.23% 6069223 23782.67 { AA }
Hand 1: 10.565% 10.27% 00.30% 1083019 31180.67 { random }
Hand 2: 10.550% 10.25% 00.30% 1081319 31286.17 { random }
Hand 3: 10.570% 10.27% 00.30% 1083509 31162.17 { random }
Hand 4: 10.539% 10.24% 00.30% 1080053 31337.33 { random }

V1 is, you re-read the OP.

CLIFFNOTES: Snapidity snap snap fold. Unless you like to be prison raped. If so, by all means make the call :eek

Geez-us,

this thread is a trainwreck.

Degenfish more or less has the right of it. We had a plan preflop and then post flop now we are deviating from our plan and then on turn villain is trying to bend us over as he takes out a tube of astroglide while eyeing our cornhole...

V2 put in a "juicer" raise. What I haven't really seen in this thread is any real analysis of what range V2 has with his juicer raise. I would say his range is 22-99, Axs.

Now, here is the next question: Is V2 an aggro idiot? According to OP description, no. V2 is competent.

Next question, is V2 short stacked? No, V2 is at 150bb and we are the only person at the table that can bust him.

Next question, does V2 see us an an aggro idiot? No, OP mentions we have been turning over nothing but the nuts and strong hands.

So, the million dollar question. Given all of the above, is this villain going to raise the only person at the table that can bust him, the only person at the table showing down big hands???? Is V2 going to raise us with A9, 88, or 77 type hands or a flush draw????

F*** NO!!!!!!!!

The bottom of V2's range in this spot is A2. V2 has 99, 44, A2, 22 here like 90% of the time.

This is the easiest snapidity snap snap fold in the world AINEC...

Unless you like being prison raped, if so, by all means call...

It seems there is a majority opinion of fold here. Thanks for the input all.
I think I'm a perfect 6/6 in my last few posts at doing the opposite of what the group here agrees on.

I thought I mentioned that V2 was new to the table 15 hands or so. But upon looking back, maybe I didn't. That doesn't seem to matter based on the analysis I got.

mhig? My Hand Is Good?

I'm guessing no on the river?

River was some Q that wasn't the diamond. And yes, that's what it means. At least for me.

So did you come here to sing your praises? Terrible hand on paper. Good to hear your live read was accurate.

I came here trying to learn if I played well, or played poorly and got lucky, or some where in between. I'm not here for your approval. I'm here to steal every ounce of knowledge you all put up. So I like getting dissected in my threads. Its easy to assume you played well when you get shoved the pot, but without challenging it, you never get better, learn, change, or adapt.
(Although I'm hoping one day people find nothing to dissect.)

So what would you have done had Villain bet the river?

Seems like the Q saved your hand. I wonder if the overcard to the board scared Villain off his river bet.

You are expecting way too much from the cards. Ive been playing over 10 years and i dont think ive run that good in a week let alone a few hours.

Quote:
"I'm limping / limp calling most of the rest of my range letting someone else take the initiative as the only way to get into a decent sized pot with a good hand."

limp calling? sounds like your playing too many hands. Leak?

utg why not limp raise with action already behind you.

Is $5 the standard bring in? Seems like a very soft game with 5 callers and no reraise.

Flop Quote:
"V2 might have flopped a set, but I think he raises at least 40% of the time if he did. He as the ability (but not likely tendency) to float the flop just the take it away on bad turns."

V2 is never floating on this hand to steal later with 3 people to act behind him unless he's a donk. He's also not calling with a pocket pair lower than 9 (excluding a set of course). The only hands that make sense for him to have are 35, maybe a gutter, set, two pair, A9. If he's calling with any other hands, he's not a solid, very TAG player as you described. Since he normally plays a bigger game you might include A4 and A2 in his range.

River Quote:
"He could certainly raise if he had 109/98, if he floated with 2 high diamonds thinking I'm bluffing, and pocket pair"

This is a description of a maniac given the preflop action. If you raised preflop your analysis would make more sense.

Next time raise preflop.

Betting the turn is good and you know you're beat when he raises. Checking the turn costs you more money because you will probably call his turn bet and river bet thinking he was taking advantage of your weak turn check.

Your best play as you described would be to fold. The only hand he might raise you with that you beat is 35 of diamonds. Again would a TAG raise the turn with that hand?

Just read that you won the hand. I think the consensus was fold because of your description of V2. I guess he was spewing this hand. You won the pot but you will lose in the long run playing this hand this way.

combowise, i still think there is only one real nutted hand in his range and a lot more stuff we beat, but consensus is to fold, so whatever. nxt thread.

as played pre, how do you play the hand, dgi? c/fold flop?

So bad not to open raise this pre IMO.

In my experience when people make the raise to 5 straight it's generally with small and mid-pairs, broadways, and sometimes the bigger suited-connectors. Rarely is it ever a big pair, I don't think I've ever seen it at least. Some old nits will do it first to act but usually it will be to something like 7.

With that said, I think once we decide to limp and it get's back to us our best option is to raise. Something like 40 on top. Yeah we will probably fold out all worse hands but playing this 5-way OOP will be tough to navigate so I would rather have all of them fold out their equity now. So often the field will out-flop us and a fair amount of the time when they don't we might get blown off our hand.

Set mining is profitable of course because we are getting close to the right pot odds for it already but it seems like our implied odds will be low. We can win a big pot set over set or boat vs. trips but it's very rare. We can win a big pot set vs. two pair but it's rare. Or we can win a medium size pot vs. a draw or a top pair hand which is more common.

So although set mining will show a profit my intuition says it can't be more profitable than raising and winning the current pot I dunno what, 80% of the time?

The juicer might decide to call us some percentage of the time but that's ok. We've extracted more value and can now play a heads-up pot with hand that's ahead of his range.

Hero bets less than half pot on turn, (33 into 79)
Villain raises $57 into a $145 pot
Hero has to call $57 in a $202 pot

Assuming hero's read that villain is quite good is correct, Villain is most likely either inducing a raise to get it all in, or trying to get hero to fold cheaply.

Such a crappy sized raise will get solid players to fold to good players often as two of the first things you learn as you become a winner is the b/f line and not to stick it in against good players lightly. Excellent players like to attack weak-blocking sized bets from timid solid players (may not be V's impression of Hero).

Similarly, such a crappy sized raise is an invitation to three bet when you want this to happen.

If we do not take the bait, it would take stones for Villain to put out a big river bet. I think we can call getting 4:1 and fold river unimporved.