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I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat

01-24-2013 , 10:05 AM
Hero has been at the table for 2+ hours and running quite well.
I'm in for 200 in sitting on around 1k at the time of the hand.
I've hit and shown {quads once, hit 2 full houses (one in a 500BB pot), 3+ straights, and a few other quality hands} and as a result, my raises are getting undue amounts of folds pre flop.
As a result, I'm raising with much much ****tier hands, and only the very top of my range for the time being. (57s+ and QQ+) I'm limping / limp calling most of the rest of my range letting someone else take the initiative as the only way to get into a decent sized pot with a good hand.

V1: Likes to take stabs at pots. Esp IP. Not particularly good as as result of this specific tendency. I raised pre one hand with KK, flopped quads in a 4 way pot, OOP, with V to my direct left. I check OTF and he bet 2/3pot, checked OTT and he bet 2/3pot (no straight draw, no flush draw, no overcard present) and bet the river and he turbo mucked. Is also much too lose pre flop. Will call most raises of 12$ or less if he's IP to the initial raiser regardless of absolute position.

V2: Solid 2/5 player. Hard to describe his tendencies, since we never play with each other as I'm a 1/2 grinder. He obv understand ranges, hand strength, can read hands well. Overall pretty good. Plays what I would assume is a somewhat exploitable game at 1/2 just because the field is bad enough that it allows him to. Very TAG. But most assuredly not nitty.


Preflop:
Hero (1k+) limps from UTG with 1010 for reasons described above.
1 limp
1 fold
V2 (~300$) raises to $5
V1 ($175) calls
2 other calls from other positions that I can't remember including 1 from the BB, they are essentially meaning less
Hero calls

V2's range here is PP looking for juice, but I would feel 66-99 are the most likely since he might just chuck 22-55 in EP, and he's new to the table, so he doesn't know anything about the dynamics. Or it is any suited connectors 45s-910s. This is what I mean when I say exploitable. He will likely only raise this amount with these hands, but no one else notices or cares, so he doesn't need to balance.
The other players could really have any two napkins. I've seem V1 limp pre and call a 12$ bet with Q5o, and other players have made similar plays but I can't remember in particular.


Flop: ($23) 942
BB checks
Hero bets 19$
1 fold
V2 calls
V1 calls
others fold

V2 might have flopped a set, but I think he raises at least 40% of the time if he did. He as the ability (but not likely tendency) to float the flop just the take it away on bad turns. He could also call with any piece of the board also looking to see what I do on the turn, but I range him more on 55-99 and 109/98. V1 haz cards, must call! He's in for $600 by the way, and we all want him to stick around.

Turn: (79$) 9422
Hero bets $33
V2 raises to $90
V1 folds
Hero?

He could certainly raise if he had 109/98, if he floated with 2 high diamonds thinking I'm bluffing, and pocket pair, and of course sets for which I'm getting destroyed. I bet small on the turn for value from V1 since I expect him to call with anything he called the flop with, and I continue to remain far ahead of his range. And partially for value/pot control vs V2 since he's more tricky and I'm not sure where I am. Should I have checked the turn? What's my best play here?
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 10:21 AM
Raise Pre! I don't like the limp/call. As played I would def. 3Bet the small raise. Plenty of dead money and you should be ahead of their ranges

As Played I fold the turn.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 10:36 AM
It sounds as if you have a tight read on the opponent which makes this a call, with a likely call of an all-in by the V on the river. (Fold to a 9, maybe fold to a diamond.) But this is specific to this particular opponent in this particular situation.

Against the majority of 1/2 opponents, however, I think bet/fold is the way to play the turn.

In a typical/readless situation, I would be asking: Why would he call on the flop and raise the turn with 9x? Why would he float the flop with two high diamonds? (Suited overcards aren't even in most min-raise ranges, are they?) Am I prepared to call a shove on the river if it is anything other than a 10?

Lacking better information (and again, you do have better information in this instance), I think the Baluga Theorem applies - you not only have one pair but you have the lowest possible overpair. It just isn't a hand worth committing $300 to and if you are calling the turn, you should be calling the river.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 01:39 PM
Typically I'd open TT in EP but I have no problem limping it either. If we do limp it, we are almost just setmining (which I'm fine with). After the juicer raise, we have a choice. We can either (a) be happy with the juicer raise and setmine in a multiway pot or (b) repop it big with all the dead money in the pot and be happy taking down some dead money. I'm actually fine with the setmining plan, especially if any tricky villains could call preflop and have position on me postflop (where we'll probably face a lot of ugly flops).

I think we kinda already made our bed preflop to almost setmine, so I'd just check/evaluate. As played, I'm pretty worried when the juicer calls my bet, especially with 3 others still to act/react behind him. It's highly unlikely he's floating with this many people to act behind him, imo.

I'm not sure I even bet the turn once the juicer has called the flop, but if I am betting I'm not betting an amount that can be seen as weak (which a < 1/2 PSB is). Anyhoo, as played, he raised so I'm done with it.

GcluelessNLnoobG
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 01:53 PM
Quote:
Turn: (79$) 9422
Hero bets $33
V2 raises to $90
V1 folds
Hero?
Calling $57 for a pot of $202? As played, call turn, c/c river. Given turn raise was so small, I expect a small river bet. Probably fold to river shove.

BTW ... perfect spot to l/r. I make it $75. Bomb given flop, pot sized bet. If flop was A-high, K-high, I c/f.

Flop bet is fine. I probably would have b/f $50 on turn. If Villain's raise is min-ish raise, call.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator
Calling $57 for a pot of $202? As played, call turn, c/c river. Given turn raise was so small, I expect a small river bet. Probably fold to river shove.

BTW ... perfect spot to l/r. I make it $75. Bomb given flop, pot sized bet. If flop was A-high, K-high, I c/f.

Flop bet is fine. I probably would have b/f $50 on turn. If Villain's raise is min-ish raise, call.
Level????

Limp reraise to 75 into a 25 pot??? So 70 more to vill to win 100, congrats you have successfully folded every hand you beat and somewhat committed yourself to every hand that has you crushed wp sir wp
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Running Uphill
Level????

Limp reraise to 75 into a 25 pot??? So 70 more to vill to win 100, congrats you have successfully folded every hand you beat and somewhat committed yourself to every hand that has you crushed wp sir wp
In case you hadn't been paying attention. Hero has TT here, not AA.

I'm intending to get everyone to fold, this time. While laying the groundwork for l/r in future hands.

And we are not committed. Effective stacks are $300.

Reread OPs table dynamics description. I expect everyone to fold, 95% of the time.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 02:53 PM
I'm not convinced either way yet, but I curious.
If this was your average 1/2 villain, it's a piece of cake fold. If its your slightly better than average 1/2 player, it's likely a fold. But I feel this villain could (read: not always) raise here with top pair thinking its good. I would likely raise here with A9 expecting to get value from 109/98 type hands.
If I have A9 and decide to open it for a raise pre, would this not be a good way to play here?
Maybe I just want to level my self into a call.
Also, what sort of range do we give V2 here? I feel like he shows up with a higher pair almost never here. A raise to 5 with JJ-AA from EP? Seems ridiculous. So what does he have here that he's raising for value?
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator
In case you hadn't been paying attention. Hero has TT here, not AA.

I'm intending to get everyone to fold, this time. While laying the groundwork for l/r in future hands.

And we are not committed. Effective stacks are $300.

Reread OPs table dynamics description. I expect everyone to fold, 95% of the time.

If your gunna limp reraise do it to 40-45, that will get the same results as bombing it to 75 that's just ******ed, I understand you want to win $25 there and make it easy for you not needing to think in a difficult spot.

This kind of play is what stunts people poker growth
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 03:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowdodger
I'm not convinced either way yet, but I curious.
If this was your average 1/2 villain, it's a piece of cake fold. If its your slightly better than average 1/2 player, it's likely a fold. But I feel this villain could (read: not always) raise here with top pair thinking its good. I would likely raise here with A9 expecting to get value from 109/98 type hands.
If I have A9 and decide to open it for a raise pre, would this not be a good way to play here?
Maybe I just want to level my self into a call.
Also, what sort of range do we give V2 here? I feel like he shows up with a higher pair almost never here. A raise to 5 with JJ-AA from EP? Seems ridiculous. So what does he have here that he's raising for value?
Even though you said V2's preflop pot sweetener is likely a small PP, I find it hard to narrow the pot sweetener to anything meaningful.

Agree its never JJ+.

Could be 32. Could be 22-TT. Could be suited connectors.

I'm not worried about what made hand he has because he can be doing this with two , T9, JT, 98, 87.

The raise is so weak it doesn't represent anything, really.

At the least its a call turn, c/f river.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 03:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Running Uphill
If your gunna limp reraise do it to 40-45, that will get the same results as bombing it to 75 that's just ******ed, I understand you want to win $25 there and make it easy for you not needing to think in a difficult spot.

This kind of play is what stunts people poker growth
l/r to $45 would be ridiculous with AA, so I'm not going to do it with TT.

l/r to $45 gets called by the entire table at 1/2NL.

And the point is not to avoid a difficult spot, and to avoid thinking. The point is to lay groundwork for future hands.

Thanks for the advice though...
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator
l/r to $45 would be ridiculous with AA, so I'm not going to do it with TT.

l/r to $45 gets called by the entire table at 1/2NL.

And the point is not to avoid a difficult spot, and to avoid thinking. The point is to lay groundwork for future hands.

Thanks for the advice though...
First no 45 does not get called by everyone

Second why are you doing this with a hand that plays decently post flop? If your gunna balance your l/r range (lol for even having a range here are you 70+?) balance it with baby pps or a K2s hand, not a hand that plays well.

I understand what your saying but its just bad
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 03:35 PM
Yeah your plan for this hand is just super bad lapid. We will be folding out everything we beat and get involved in a big pot oop where we are probably under it but have no clue.

In poker you should be trying to get value from your strong hands or bluffing when appropriate. Notions like raising to take it down which involve betting a quarter I our stack will lead to you losing huge pots with tens or jacks or winning small ones.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 03:44 PM
Call turn, check/call river.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Running Uphill
Second why are you doing this with a hand that plays decently post flop?
TT is dominated by most flops. It is either the bottom of my open raising range from UTG, or more likely, the top of my set mining range. Given table dynamics, I'd rather l/r then set mine. Anyway... given OPs description of table dynamics, I'm l/r with lots and lots of stuff. The table is apparently terrified of OP's god-like run-good.

So yeah... for me, l/r is back in style... just like velcro sneaker straps.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 04:04 PM
I think your read is off here just on the description and betting patterns of this hand this villain does not seem like a typical tag. He`s playing 1-2 when he normally plays 2-5 first of all. and hes putting in these 5 pot juicers. here the turn changes nothing in the hand, a straight forward tag almost has no hand that he should play this way call flop and then all of a sudden come out on the turn. I`m definately assuming he is more of a lag player than tag, especially considering that he normally plays 2-5.

i think the issue here is that you had a plan preflop. (set mine) and now you have deviated from this plan by leading out on the flop. An argument can be made to reraise preflop, letting him get away with this $5 crap when your holding 10-10 feels like your letting him in with too wide a range and also not punishing him at all for this by getting some value when you have the best hand. letting him in with a completely undefined range and also changing your game plan is what has made this a difficult spot. if your willing to lead out on these kinds of board you might as well re-raise or just do a normal open preflop. At this point villains viewpoint of you is important in this hand but based on description and hand I would never fold here it`s possible you are or villain views you as scared money, he is repping extremely thin and he usually plays bigger. I would go as far to say as its possible he makes this play with worse value hands with the other player behind him as a isolate semi-showdown type move with top pair decent kicker type hands.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozmosis313
and hes putting in these 5 pot juicers. here the turn changes nothing in the hand, a straight forward tag almost has no hand that he should play this way call flop and then all of a sudden come out on the turn.
I have no idea why we don't think villain is super strong here; this is like a set on the flop always, isn't it? He juiced the pot preflop in case he hits. And now he just flats this dry-as-a-bone flop with 3 others still to act behind him. Standardly played set here, imo.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator
TT is dominated by most flops. It is either the bottom of my open raising range from UTG, or more likely, the top of my set mining range. Given table dynamics, I'd rather l/r then set mine. Anyway... given OPs description of table dynamics, I'm l/r with lots and lots of stuff. The table is apparently terrified of OP's god-like run-good.

So yeah... for me, l/r is back in style... just like velcro sneaker straps.

You keep saying table dynamics, but OP does not say once that there have been a lot of opens or V2 likes to iso limpers. What gives you the idea it's not going to limp around?

But why bloat a pot that when it is called your a absolutely crushed and out of positions??

And yes you are committing yourself, are you going to just check it down on a 225r flop? There's 150 in the pot and eff stacks are 225, are you auto mucking when you check and vill bets 100? Are you bet folding 100 on the flop?

And for the last time TT is not dominated by most flops, it has great showdown value, this is considered a VALUE HAND, why are we blowing everything that we have beat out of the pot??
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
I have no idea why we don't think villain is super strong here; this is like a set on the flop always, isn't it? He juiced the pot preflop in case he hits. And now he just flats this dry-as-a-bone flop with 3 others still to act behind him. Standardly played set here, imo.
I mean it could easily be a set of 4`s your right but that is really all he is repping and my point was standard tag here at least some of the time should definately be building a pot on the flop to get stacks later. You want to stack off vs random two pairs and stubborn top pair type hands to me this is more standard than slowplay. The position he is calling from on the flop he should almost never have any hand with a 2 in it here. in anycase i wouldn`t describe him as typical tag. Ive seen lots of decent 2-5 players splash around and spew chips in 1-2 games waiting for a seat, just saying that has to bear some factor. and no i don`t think this is standardly played set if that what he has, although it wouldn`t be entirely unexpected again I would expect building the pot on a dry flop multiway would be more standard line. Opponents are eithor going to have a hand they are willing to call of with or they aren`t. if anything he is trying to rep a 2 which just doesn`t make any sense if he`s decent to call with a two on the flop in his posiiton. more than likely he has worse hands he is overvalueing here and a myriat of semibluffs-air, that I cannot advocate folding here.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozmosis313
i think the issue here is that you had a plan preflop. (set mine) and now you have deviated from this plan by leading out on the flop.
this x1000. OP, it's pretty much useless to think about the correct play in this spot if we're only in this much trouble because we make bad reads, take ****ty lines pre, and deviate from what little planning we made for the hand overall.

It's like you decided to rob a bank, but the cops catch up to you and instead of running away, you try and fight them and get arrested and thrown in jail and have to spend all this energy figuring out the best line to prevent you from getting ass-raped in the shower when you should have stayed home and not robbed the goddamn bank to begin with (props to whoever said something like this the first time)

Raise pre if you're going to play for value, otherwise, check/call or check/fold post depending on your overall plan for the hand.

Sure you might be good on the flop, but how many turns and rivers are you going to be comfortable with against this supposed 2/5 reg? If you can't see a clear path to showdown, there's no shame in getting out early.

also, LOLing hard at l/r
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 04:56 PM
given the initial limp in, and a 5 dollar open from late with one caller I don`t see why raising it up here is lol. i mean the initial limp isn`t optimal or anything but given a 5dollar opon and a caller i have to think a raise is superior to just completing out of position. had the open been a more standard open i wouldn`t mind calling as much. but given the action 10-10 figures to be massively ahead of a late 5dollar juicer and one caller.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 05:02 PM
Limp reraise pre given table dynamics. V2 could have an overpair as well. You're beat by so much on the turn in v2s range you have to fold
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Li0n
Limp reraise pre given table dynamics. V2 could have an overpair as well. You're beat by so much on the turn in v2s range you have to fold
For you or for anyone else here:
What's exactly is in V2's range that is ahead of me?
You really think that V2 made a $5 bet, over a limper with JJ+?
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 05:25 PM
Those questions could be better answered had you made a standard open or raised his 5 dollar juice bet rather than limp calling 1010 from early position to (set mine) then deciding to pump money into a dry flop. You really no very little about villains range as played and thats your problem but we cannot help you with that. It`s a function of the way you have played the hand.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote
01-24-2013 , 05:27 PM
Set all day. People get married to overpairs in these situations. It's one leak in my game I've actually fixed.
I try and set mine with my good hand from EP and end up with an overpair, facing turn heat Quote

      
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