with AQo in EP (SB,BB,UTG) i'll 3 bet a loose aggro fish who has a huge opening range trying to isolate, and either

a) some weak player with position on me calls the 3bet
b) original raiser will call me but he has position on me

of course it's easy when i flop top pair (or am in position)... but this is especially troublesome if i brick the flop, because i try to win every pot in this situation

i've lost a lot of money by 3! with AQo in EP... help?

example from today's session:

$2/3 $100 max buy-in (BS, i know.)
HERO: $200
VILLAIN 1: $500
VILLAIN 2: $500

Hero has been at the table ~30 minutes, played one hand in which i doubled up. AJ in BB vs Villain 1's J7o in limped pot, AJ745 board. got it all in on turn

Both villains play loose games, they have 5 buy-ins in front of them but i see them as weak players with huge PF ranges.

Villain 1 i have seen float flops in which he has business doing so, only to fold to a turn bet (ex: calls flop bet with AJo on 468 board, folds on turn). Also seen him call down three streets with bottom pair.

4 limps
Villain 2 raises to 7 from SB
Hero raises to 20 from BB with AQ with intentions of isolating
Villain 1 calls $20 from MP (idiot)
fold, fold, fold
Villain 2 calls $20

Pot: $~60
Flop: 964
Villain 2 checks
Hero stabs $20. (i know bet size is small, but i feel like my $20 bet accomplishes the same thing as a $60 bet against these villains. either they're interested in the flop and call, or they fold)
Villain 1 calls, Villain 2 folds.

Pot: $100
Turn: 2
Hero stabs again, hoping to fold out any of his floats (i.e. in the above AJo example). $35
Villain calls.

River: K
At this point i think i'm only beating 78o, 56o.
saw him laugh and smile when i checked.
I check, villain bets $100, I fold.

I tried to keep my losses at a minimum, but it's difficult to check the flop despite missing. do i just check if i brick the flop? i barreled on turn because firing flop and checking turn would be burning money...

i'm not asking about not only this hand in particular, but rather 3betting and then taking a flop out of position. i am usually very cautious about 3betting out of position, and only tend to do so when i know i have considerable fold equity

side-note: any threads on how to approach short buy-in games? thought there'd be a thread on this but couldn't find it

I would suggest when you are OOP and you have a dynamic where you will very likely get called in 1 or 2 spots and floated on most boards, don't 3 bet AQ. 3 bet more made hands like 88+. And value bet the crap out of these guys.

3 bet more in position. There isn't much value to be gained here w/ the AQ play given your situation IMO.

Raise bigger pre flop. The C bet is fine, but it needs to be bigger. You ended up betting 20 (flop) + 35 (turn). Why not just bet 40is on the turn?

AQo looks tempting and seductive but it isn't as good as it looks. AQo makes top pair hands, rarely anything better - top pair isn't a good multiway hand OOP, you'll win small pots and lose big pots. Considering the bad possition it can be that your best play is to fold AQo from EP rather than 3-betting.

No doubt there will be plenty of people who see a fold of AQo in EP as nitty, overly tight or just down right cowardly. But there is a lot to be said for being nitty/tight in bad possition - especially if Hero doesn't have a huge post-flop skill edge over the rest of the table.

The original post says it is simple terms - Hero is losing money playing AQo from early possition. Best way to save your chips is to muck the hand.

DrStrange

In this particular hand, it seems like a better line might be a closer-to-standard cbet on the flop ($30-$40?), and then either shoving a blank turn to protect your repped overpair or waving the flag, giving you the option of betting, check-raising, or bluff-catching the river if V2 checks behind on the turn.

Your assessment of the villains might be off, also, considering they're both $500+ in a $100 buy-in game. V1's range on the flop has more equity than your hand, and he knows it. If he has clubs, you don't have enough to get him off. If he reads you for 2 broadway cards, you're done also.

AQo in early position is pretty marginal. AQo on the button is premium. Avoid marginal situations. I don't think V1 or V2 are stacking off super light (you gave the example of a coolered 2p vs. 2p...no way he doubles you up there w/ AT, etc.), but I could be way off on that read.

Also, both "stabs" look like exactly what they are. No way does that look like a player trying to either protect his hand vs. a draw or get max value from a smaller overpair.

Because I felt that the difference between a $35 bet vs a $40 bet was negligible...
My goal was to push him off any floats while maintaining the initiative in the hand.

you're giving these players way too much credit. they're bad.
i don't know how he got to $500, he was pretty passive from when i sat down.
and he definitely would have doubled me up with AT there, maybe even any ace. bad bad player.

Sorry, I meant on the flop, not on the turn. I would either bet any scare card on the turn, or just check the turn.

^also, black lotus, i've had too many donks "put me on a bluff" when i bet pot on flop and shove turn. no need to bet $100 when a $40 bet accomplishes the same thing.

I think this bet sizing is transparent. However, that's the exact trouble with playing AQo in a bad spot. You either hit and win the pf bets or miss and have to continue firing, hoping to sell a story.

Fire 3 bullets / empty the clip OR check when you miss. Don't burn up your chips by making those small cbets that have no real chance to take down a pot. Remember, the villain behind you called your 3 bet. He likely doesn't have KTo of some other garbage (because the aggro type of player to play that for a 3b is raising to begin with), and if he does, you're going to get rebluffed a lot of the time.

I'll defer to your read here, I'm sure you're right.

But you say that betting the flop and checking the turn is burning money. So is betting the turn and checking the river. Ever thought about check-raising the turn? Might be a new weapon for your arsenal...

I've seen this dude call a $28 3! With A4o...

a lot of times when I raise AK or AQ type of hands against 3 players or more, I don't c bet unless the board is incredibly dry if i miss. To me in you hand, i think you have to know the villains perceived calling ranging vs your 3 bet. mid pairs, low pairs trying to hit sets, suited connectors and etc.. with that board, you can c bet once to see where you are at..your turn bet was way to small to represent QQ to make him fold his TT..I don't know if he ever will tbh..and if he had an open ender then you are giving him good odds to draw, and with a smallish turn bet and shutting down on the river, I think you just told him you had AK and played it poorly

If you're going to 3-bet, I think you should have went at least 9x up to 11x pre-flop. I also don't see much wrong with flatting here either.

As played, I think your flop bet was too small and your turn bet way too small if you should have even bet at all.

ill be honest OOP ive been min raising these AJs AQ/AKo pre and playing them fit or fold for the very same reason as the thread starter so if im gonna see a flop 5 way atleast theres 20+ in there to start so that if i hit my ace or queen whatever i can go ahead and start building a pot after

I don't think you're getting it. There is a 1% chance of him showing up with TT+ here. In this particular case these opponents were pretty damn bad. I'm putting him on middle/bottom pair, ready to call off if I shoved.

Just remembered I saw him ship 100+ BBs with A4o on a 45JjT board. This was after my AQ hand.

Thought about that.. But that would have ballooned the pot. I was making small bets because I didn't want to play a massive pot OOP with AQ high.

I thought the river would have been a safe card to check because it is a good scare card. Not a good enough scare card to bluff all in however, he's calling me with second pair
Or better (I believe)

Ultimately, against these types of opponents, you need a pick and shovel. No other tools necessary. Sometimes you just have to have it, and then go ahead and get payed off. Otherwise, wait for the next hand.

If you shoved the river (and made sure to have at least a PSB on river to shove (and be covered), then you would have an expertly played hand IMO. The river check was horrid, but you came really close to ginning the entire play of the hand. Shove the K river next time and get 5 stars from me the entire way (bet sizes included).

youve answered all of your own questions in your posts with your descriptions of these opponents. you said this guy calls 3b with a4o, so widen ur 3b value range, mostly in position if possible, and value bet the **** out of this guy. so you said this guy wont fold 2nd pair to 3 barrels, so only value bet him with tp strong 2nd pr kinda hands and c/f other hands. i doubt hes getting very aggro without having a hand. the other guy floats with overcards, but he'll also call when he hits the board, youre trying to bluff the wrong ppl, the ones that wont fold. i dont think you need to stop 3b aqo but u need to value bet only and learn to c/f if oop. in position youll get at least one free card.

the hand, 3b more, as with all other hands you will be 3b from now on 3b more if hell call more, since ur always 3b for value vs these guys. otf c/f or c/c depending on their sizing. if youre going to bet it needs to be a little more than this, you think they are fit or fold but ur bet sizing here is just screaming bluff, unless youre balancing here with ur strong hands, which you ont need to against these guys, just do a normal cbet. ott the bet is not getting any hands to fold that called the flop.

Hate to do the plus one but yea he had you on AK with your weak bets. King comes on river so shove it in.

Fold pre...esp to loose agro's...wait two hands and be able to play 78 suited against them in position....Stop focusing on the absolute strength of your starting hand and focus on the relative strength vs the opponents.

Grunch

You cannot assume that since he has a wide calling range (even for 3 bets) he is an idiot. First of all, he has a big stack, so a wide calling range is appropriate. Secondly, the 3 bet is small and is the same as a standard raise in lots of 1-2 games.

If you are playing tight, he has you on either a big ace or a pair. He has to figure out which one if the flop hit him. He might call all the way down with a little pair if he does not put you on a bigger pair. If you play both AK and AQ the way you did, he knows you are more likely to have those hands than a pair. Your little bets on the flop and turn confirm it for him. I would call you down too with bottom pair...
either represent an overpair or check. You are representing exactly what you have with your wimpy bets.

You did not say how he responds to a check. Does he stab every time? If not, try checking on the flop and betting the turn. IF you c-bet every time in the past, a check might look suspicious enough to get a free card. Personally I like cbetting the turn. I also like sometimes waiting till the turn to bet my TPTK/overpair hands for pot control since I only have one pair. When players figure this out, they are much less likely to take stabs at every pot I check.

Your hand is strong preflop and if you hit, most likely one pair postflop. Bet more preflop with all those limpers in. Make your effective stack a short stack so that if they do call, they are at a mathematical disadvantage. $28 is 4 times the weak raise by the BB and with all the limpers, $30 is justifiable. That is 1/6 of your stack. That is similar to a 3-4 bb bet with a 20 bb stack. Calling in that situation with medium to small suited connectors is a disaster. So you either get bad calls or you pick up all the money in the pot. Either one of these outcomes is pretty good considering you only have AQo in early position.

Not to offend you, but I would say that you don't have the skills to determine which loose aggressive players are good and which are bad. In order to have the ability to know, you would have to have spent countless hours playing a loose aggressive style successfully. Since your game is tight, there is no way for you to know if the loose aggressive player in front of you at the moment is good. I have made all the plays you described in your posts which you claim show how bad the player is. The situation and the opponents are more important than the hands they played. Remember when Deebs told Hanson that either he is very good or very lucky? I would say that if the guy is up 5x his buyin, he is either very good or very lucky. I certainly would not jump to the conclusion that he is a bad bad player.

If he has a wide range preflop, exploit it by betting more preflop to the point that it is a mathematical error for him to call you. If he then folds, you can put him in the good category, if he continues to call, exploit it by raising even more next time. You should have the mindset that the guy is either very good or very lucky. If you assume based on range alone that the guy is a lucky fish, you are setting yourself up to be dominated by guys who are very good and can read you like a book. Based on the OP, I would venture to say that you are easy to read, and assuming that someone is bad is not helping the situation.

I know this sounds insulting to you, but I went through the exact same phase you describe yourself in, and was tired of losing to these players. I discovered the strategy of beating them with an effective short stack this epiphany increased my winrate more than any other in my time playing poker.

When you figure out the reason people are making these plays, you will find yourself making them when they are profitable and not making them when they are not. Then you will also know if players are making those plays because they are profitable in that situation or if they are making the play because they saw someone else win with that play and adopted it as a strategy all of the time.

One more thought. Don't loosen up your game just to loosen up your game. figure out when it is appropriate. For example to exploit a deep stacked fish who overvalues top pair and you have excellent implied odds to do so, or to exploit a fit or fold opponent who will miss with AK on 2/3 of the flops (then overvalue when he does hit.) In these situations, you are losing money if you do not exploit.

And dont forget the biggest advantage loose players have. No one ever puts them on Aces, Kings, or Queens... and even though they play lots of weaker hands, they get the big hands just as often as the tight players. The more often you take advantage of specific situations, the more situations that will come up for you to take advantage of.


This is exactly the worst strategy.

Do not give implied odds to people who play wide ranges if your range is small. You will lose long term because they can put you on a hand and you cannot put them on a hand. Then when you hit, they know you hit and they will either fold or take all of your money with 2 pair+. If the flop is low, they will assume you missed and can either call you down with a low pair or bluff you out.

Do not build big pots with TPTK hands multiway. Since the pot is big, a bet has to be big to get drawing hands out. you end up building a pot for the guy who hit 2 pair or a set. You are forced into the mistake of overvaluing one pair hands.