Hero has $1300 and a fairly solid aggressive image

V1 - (200) nitty Asian girl, mid 20s. More folds than an origami crane
V2 - (150) loose reg who has been losing and a bit spewy. calls too much on draws
V3 - (550) new to table Asian guy mid 20s

Limps to me in BB with K7

Flop ($25) QT4

I lead for $20. All villains call.

Turn ($105) J

Hero? Is this a bet/fold? If we check, can we call any bets on the turn knowing we will face another bet on the river?

Meh, just check and re-evaluate the turn. Hard for anyone to bluff 4-way. They may check the hand down from here on in.

I call a bet of up to 60 on the turn from villain 3 who has 550 behind with the intention of shoving the river if we hit a royal flush but also hoping that he sometimes gives up with a worse hand when we check to him on the river. If anyone else bets I probably fold

If we bet the turn then we end up turning our hand face up when we check the river.

c/f without reads

What's wrong with leading for $65 here? If you get raised by V1 or V2, fold...if you get raised by V2, snap call and call river.

gross sopt, ur beat.

c/f

Bad spot. Check turn.

Thread title is a bit misleading, makes it seem like you have an enormous hand in a cooler spot. Thought this would be one of those live threads where someone calls a KQ2 flop with J9, hits a T on the turn and wants to fold because their read has suddenly changed to give their opponent a range of {AJ+}

FYP

check fold turn or check call small bet on river

Why are we check folding? seems really super nitty to me.

bet/fold the turn.

Hi TheClubber,

I'd bet 60-80 on the turn and fold to a raise from any unknown or passive player. I think I'd order the options like this
1. bet and fold to a raise
2. chk and call a bet from an unknown or aggressive player
3. chk and fold to a bet

Check folding is bad because people will bet lower flushes, or some loose aggressive's with something like top pair bad kicker that has no chance to improve. However since it's multiway you're more likely to get value from a worse hand calling than in trying to induce a bluff.

the 9 and 8 of diamonds are definitely calling a bet OTT, and never raising. Lower diamonds, sets, and two-pair might call a smaller bet unable to get away from it/trying to boat up. The A is the only hand that will raise us if we bet the turn because we have it in our range, and it's just a bad spot for villain to raise anything <A OTT. Keep in mind that all these hands that will call a turn bet will likely c/back most of the time as well. I think a b/fold is far superior to c/fold and better than c/call. I like $40/fold, and $80/fold OTR.

Thought this too.

Check turn/eval. unraised mw pot...i wouldn't waste a 65$ bet. when the next flush is so low we are unlikely to get called.

You've got a small hand. When the buck of the hand is on the board and you are using one card from your hand by definition you've got a small hand. You made a mistake on the flop. Why did you bet $20 only? You want action? Isn't that so? Well, you've got to pay the price now.

AX,

AT is right. You should have bet $75 on the flop to charge anyone trying to hit a set. Also, you should have known that another diamond was going to come on the turn when determining your flop bet sizing. Now you have to pay for your mistake. AT stays out of situations like this. That is why he makes money and you don't.

B/C is reaaaalllly spewy here. We have to be able to get away from a very obvious second nuts here. If you want to get to showdown then c/c... but I really think this is a striaght c/f. It may seem really nitty but given we got 3 calls chances are someone was drawing to the nut flush. I really don't see any hands that call a lead or value bet worse here... This isn't really a board people would bluff the turn on either. I check/fold the turn and if it gets checked around call a river bet that gives you more than 2.5:1 on a call on the river.

Not going to derail thread/troll any more, but this is how I feel.

AT, what is a good flop betsize that gets us value and folds? Call me horrible, but I like this size.

This is correct.

We're only going to get one more street of value from weaker hands.

Betting the turn only gets called by the nuts or hands that are drawing to a boat. It bloats the pot and potentially sets us up to be bluffed off the pot when we invariably have to check the river.

I think there are a few posters in this thread who do not appreciate how big this pot is becoming relative to the stacks sizes. Betting potentially puts us in an uncomfortable spot. It also denies our opponents the chance to try a pathetic bluff that we can pick off on the river.

On these monotone flops, the saying "first one to bet wins the pot" really applies, unless you are up against a villain(s) who:

1) has two pair or better (ie. set, straights, made flushes)
2) has a fairly high flush draw card

Almost any other holdings will fold to a bet. So we don't really care to get value from the top pair type hands with no redraws

Therefore, it doesn't matter whether you bet 15, 20, 25 on this flop. You aren't getting called unless the villain(s) have one of these two hand types.

So, IME we should target these ranges that CANNOT fold to a flop bet... or better yet, can spazz.

Betting pot on flop (i.e $25) is just the beginning. You can also overbet, giving off the impression that you're either:

1) protecting a vulnerable hand
2) are FOS

If you bet 25, 30 or even 35 on flop, there isn't a single player that will fold two pair, sets, made flushes or nut high flush draw (A, Q)

I think this is where there is value lost on the flop.

I suppose it varies by region but here in So Cal a lot of people would fold an ace of diamonds to a $25-$35 bet on the flop. Also, some nitty players would even fold top pair type hands to this bet. You are actually losing value here if you shut out these hands with your preflop bet. To suggest that a $20 bet with the second best hand into a $25 pot is a mistake is results-oriented thinking at its best.

You are right...And I did state that TP isn't likely going to continue. Therefore there really isn't much value in luring in a top pair type hand with a less than PSB on flop. We are targeting villain(s) with a stronger range than TP.

No, I didn't suggest that at all, and am not looking at results. I am sharing what I would do, given this spot, and what range of hands I am targetting hoping to get max value from...And I am looking beyond the flop....I am looking for hands that can withstand aggression on future streets. Since TP hands who could call a flop bet would inevitably fold to turn aggression, I wouldn't bang my head against the wall for making a villain with TP hand fold to my flop bet

Your points do have merit. I just think that the value range you are targeting in this case is too narrow. Basically, you are targeting Q10 and pocket 4s (let's disregard lower flushes and assume they will get all in no matter what you bet on the flop). Is Q10 going to being able to call a large turn bet? I think the only range that continues to a large turn bet is a set of 4s.

1) You really just need one villain (any more is just gravy) to bait the hook. Therefore, I think between 4 villains, finding one with a range of either Q10, sets, A or Q flush draw is not as narrow as you think

2) turn bet sizing is very villain dependent...In a vacuum, I would bet somewhere between 1/2 to 2/3 pot

The overbet is really for the flop only in order to build some momentum.


I think most villains would check call bets with 2pair up to the river...On river, they will check/call or check/fold. Therefore, river bet sizing needs to be tempting enough for a call

I checked the turn. It checked around to button who bet $60 which I reluctantly called. All others folded. River came a brick. I checked. Button bet around $80 and I folded face up. Button showed A6 for the flopped nut flush. In the end the 4th diamond saved me since I would probably have lost more. I don't like my call on the turn since I expect at least one villain has the nuts and I can't call any river bets.

I think the flop sizing is fine. It gets value from worse flushes, sets, Ad, 2 pr hands, or Qx Tx with a decent diamond. It's pretty unlikely that 3 of the 4 villains have enough to call.

just a few points that weren't mentioned (yet)
LIMPED MULTIWAY POT OOP
I don't put any chips in the middle after a flop bet (size is fine)
To many love Ax for a limp.