You're looking for a boxed answer. If x, do y. It doesn't work that way. You're at a point where you're going to have to start ranging your opponents. It sounds like you've come up with a few standard lines for various situations that you don't deviate from. That's great for someone who's learning how not to spew chips but its time to start putting in the work and take it off of autopilot.

The answer for this particular spot is clearly to exploit his tendency to bet fold. You should be able to come up with the way to do that. You can win with standard lines and no think poker at the low levels. You won't start crushing and moving up until you're actively engaged in every hand.

Maybe I'm way off on OP. point remains regardless.

... leave the word 'clearly' out of your OP ... it does stir the pot though!!

Hand 1) You have now 'clearly' found out that there is little reason to shove here. You are IP .. you can bet the Turn if V doesn't. This was a 3-bet pot and a lot of V will give you 'credit' for your 3-bets going forward in the hand. If you cant realistically put 9x or XhXh in your V range, then just calling is fine in this spot.

Hand 2) V is obviously giving you way too much credit here when you c/r ... BUT ... you are still multi-way (flat callers have mystery!!) and OOP going forward. So in this hand I don't mind the move with middle set. Obv you can lead the Turn, but there are some scare cards that can come out. This is a 50-50 spot for me with middle/top set. I tend to be more aggressive with bottom set though.

Hand 3) When using your 'credibility' you need to tell the right story for the action you are taking. What 'credible' story are you selling the V here by raising the Flop? As long as you think your action matches your image or history with a V,then go ahead and make the move. At this point I'm not sure what you are trying to tell him ... set of 10s? You would've raised QQ+ PF, yes? Maybe JJ? Your PF actions don't narrow your range of hands to the point that your V will fold 'properly' in this spot IMO.

I don't think it's wise for you to play out of your zone, so to speak, just for the sake of it. Make sure that your story matches your previous actions to create the same result ... fold or call ... going forward. If you aren't used to bluffing, then try it in some smaller spots so you aren't giving off any physical tells. But as you must know from reading these threads, bluffing at 1-2 is not really too wise of a long term method. You may just want to change some of your betting sizes to keep opponents off guard .. but still have a hand when you do it. Make adjustments to which V is in the hand with you and the others 'may' see a change in your pattern which will lead to more chips down the road when they are playing against you in a hand. GL

To expand a bit more ... and after reading Spike's take too ... I go back to my 'story' telling ...

Would you ever 'show up' with 6h8h on a Ah7s9h board? Whether flatting or 3-betting PF it doesn't matter. If you get aggressive on this Flop with your image then TT-KK are going to fold out, right? They are putting you on AA/77/99/AX ... right?

So without a few 'bad' shows on your part, you can't make hay in this type of hand. Only AA is going to continue against your image. In one sense that's not a bad thing as you get the pot, but the pot isn't as big as it could be if you get a larger range of hands to call.

Large opening hands are pretty rare ... sets are pretty rare ...

The smaller the range your opponents put you on the smaller your pots are going to be with the exception of coolers of course. What do you want out of poker? I would suppose that if you are on this site then you want continued and larger success. You need to 'test' the waters of your and your opponents ranges bit by bit until you are more comfortable with more situations. GL

^^^ So in short, you're saying I should not play ABC poker if I want more action, right? But the problem is, I feel I'm not skilled enough to play correctly/non-spewy when I get out of my ABC zone. I tend to spew, just check out my KTo hand I just posted.

Like in my LLSNL games, I see the big winning regs (who usually play 2/5 and bigger) open in EP with 78o, squeeze 4-way $15 calls to $80 with 27hh in the BB and yet somehow, they always crush.

That's not crushing, that's luck boxing.

It's fine that' you're not comfortable opening up. To sum up my post.

1. Start thinking about why your standard lines work. Once you understand why, you can begin to understand when you can vary from them.
2. Really REALLY focus on actively thinking throughout the hand. Put your opponent on a range. Put yourself on a range.


This is HARD work. REALLY hard work. It's also the key to taking $8/hr to $30/hr at $1/2. Exploitive play is the nuts. Your standard lines work because they exploit the worst tendencies of most players you'll run into. That's why it's easy to teach. But to go past that, you'll have to start working hard every single hand.

If you're considering a nonstandard line (nonstandard for you) try to limit them to smaller spots and in position. You'll undoubtedly fail for a while so limit the damage.

I don't have much to add here, but bet/folding is the bread and butter of tags. It is literally what makes their game profitable because of the passive nature of most players.

A book that explains very well how to move beyond abc tag poker and start exploiting obvious leak is playing the player by ed miller. He has a chapter on abusing bet/folds. I suggest you check it out.

Hand 1: Unfortunately, the math is off because the pot is not $105 going into the flop as OP noted. It's $108 [blind's $$] before the rake. If they rake $5 & $1 for BB, that leaves $102.00.

V bets $50 = $152.00 - ?$1.00? dealer tip? leaves $151.00

If V folds the all-in [when we are drawing stone cold dead] 44.5% of the time, we win $151 * .445 = $67.195 & lose $120 * .555 = $66.60 when he calls.

So, I show an 11% edge on the fold vs. call, if, you're spot on with your read when you make the play.

Hand 2: $62 in pot [OP forgot BB] going into flop - $5 rake/$1 BB/ $1 tip = $55.00 + $40 flop bet = $95.00

If V folds 60% of the time [when we are drawing stone cold dead] you win $95 * .60 = $57.00 & lose $140 * .40 = $56.00

Better to say that the Villain(s) played their hands very standard.

You, on the other hand, are like most people here -- phobic about calling bets with the best hand and determined to make everyone with the worst hand fold.

If someone (in this case the Villain) is doing exactly what you want them to do (betting with the worst hand), why would you be so focused on making them stop?

A good player could bet $39 on that board if he has a solid read that a player likes to bluff-raise weak-looking bets on this sort of board.

Heh, didn't notice this was an old thread that got bumped.

Anyways, the more obvious answers are to bluff-raise more and to raise less with value hands. Some opponents will adjust to these tactics, some won't. Deeper level thinking involves what sort of adjustments to you think they eventually make and how you counter when they do change their play.

Player A folds too much - how do you adjust?

Bluff more.

Player B calls too much - how do you adjust?

Value bet more.

FYP

Also, Player C value bets too much - how do you adjust?

Value reraise more, but call the same amount.

This may not be obvious. Compare two Villains, one which bets 15 hands that beat you and 5 bluffs; and another which bets 20 hands that beat you and 5 bluffs. The bottom of your calling range is worse than the worst hand they're value betting - it's solely to catch bluffs. So unless they bluff more, the worst hand you call with remains the same.

Player D bluffs too much - how do you adjust?

Call more and rebluff more, but value raise the same amount.

Again, not obvious, but your value raise threshold is set by their value bet threshold, and has nothing to do with how often they bluff.

If he wants to bet/fold let him. Raise as a semi bluff and call down with your big hands.

If he likes to bet/fold he also probably likes to bet thin and hopes to get all the money in by the end of the hand. If so why would we ever raise heads up?

Hand one just call.

Hand two a raise is okay because he can put you on the draw but probably 120 is better. PS if your open limping range is only pocket pairs than it makes you pretty easy to play against.

Above does not pass logic test.

Bolded doesn't make sense to me. If someone is value betting a range that beats your bluff catchers 3 out of 4 times then the bottom of your calling range should be better than the worst hand they are value betting. As a result if their value betting range starts to widen for w/e reason then you're calling range should widen as well. Am I missing something?

You're not, because if you can't beat the bluff, you are not bluff catching.

You need to open up your range to at least be bluffing with flush draws. If you are so tight and don't bluff much you need to table it so that people aren't so quick to put you on super strong hands.

HAND 1: Just flat, he'd never fold a flush draw is small part of his range, so let him have $70 on the turn into a $200 pot

HAND 2: Since your tight he knows you probably aren't check raising a king or flush draw, you shouldn't ever be check raising, (although I'd prefer a lead out) if you flat the flop($140) and lead the turn $80, you set up a $300 river pot and can shove and it look like your value betting the King

But we shouldn't be bluff catching vs. the described range (assuming normal bet sizing.) We can only call if our hand beats some of the villains value hands as well as his bluffs.

Disclaimer: Not sure I understood what you're referring to and not sure I was clear in my first post.

Not really - bluff catcher by definition shouldn't be able to beat anything but bluffs.

I wouldnt worry about this type of villian because they are pretty rare. 95% of your 1/2 live players will stack off with over pairs and top pairs, etc. You are dealing with a rare individual, but this guy isnt a good player he is just a nit. In the first hand he limp called with JJ and then he donks almost half his stack and then folds which is horrible. The only adjustment I would make for this kind of villian is in heads up pots. If we are in multiway pots we still have to play ABC/standard. But if we are heads up with this guy we can trap a little bit. Like in the first hands we could just call on the flop if we are heads up and then call his jam on the turn profitablly. But on the other hand, I am never upset if I am winning pots with minimal risk. So its really not a big deal if this guy is folding some decent hands because you have 9 other players who probally willl not.