Hey guys,

So I’m doing a $1500 bankroll challenge (I have a progress thread over on blogs & goals) and the game I’m playing is 2/3 NL, with a $6 rake taken on any hand that reaches the flop, and I believe it’s $1 taken if it doesn’t reach the flop.

So in general, I try to tighten up because it’s not worth playing smaller pots when they’re taking so much, but I’m wondering how I should approach a button raise. Is it worth it trying to steal the blinds to some extent if I’m raising $15 to win $4 post-rake? Online obviously I’m raising 40%+ hands from the button, but how much should I adjust for this highly raked game with large raise sizes?

Thanks!

Wow, a $6 rake on any hand that reaches the flop is pretty gross.

My guesses:

- probably not really worth attempting to steal the blinds from the Button with mediocre hands due to the $1 drop really cutting into the pot you're stealing and the $6 drop really affecting the profitability when you fail and go to the flop
- also, if you're having a lot of opportunities to do Button steals (i.e. it folds to you on the Button a lot) you're probably sitting in a pretty bad game to begin with (there has to be a better table going, no?)
- tight is right and tighter is righter from all positions in high rake structures with limited BIs / small stacks as you just can't afford to be splashing around, imo
- I'm a big proponent of limp/overlimp-to-reraise method to begin with (a very contentious method, I know), but it makes even more sense in games where massive rake isn't deducted from pots that don't see a flop

GcluelesshighrakestructurenoobG

A 6$ rake just for seeing a flop FOR SURE THERE ARE VERY FEW WINNERS IN THAT GAME!

OP didn't say what the buying cap was. I play a 1/3 with a $500/table max buyin and it plays like the 2/5 did a few years ago, or bigger. So, there is more than enough action to compensate. With most stacks at 100-300 bbs, I regularly see a $15 open get called in 4+ spots. In fact, just the other day I saw a 7-way flop for $15 each, or $100 after the drop.

The top 10% of players can easily beat the game with that kind of action. Which is probably normal.

Play very tight and you need big stacks at all time. You can't beat that game if the recs buy in for $100. If they buy in for $150 you won't be making much. Assuming you play 30 hands per hour and play 25% of hands = 7.5 hands X $6 = $45 off your pots.

Compared to my structure which is 10% max $5 for which most pots that take maybe $3 that is $23 I get back compared to you. This includes a $15 raise + a call, and I CB. Usually I raise varying amounts. Even if the loss is $15 that is still a lot of money.

No stealing. If you raise $15 and some good calls you $15 from the BB the pot is $37 - $6. You are risking $15 to win his $12.5. Not a good deal.
Especially if they take money even if no flop.

Hate these games.

Of course the top players are going to win. Out of the 1000s of poker players I've come across both online and live only 4 to 6 winning players come to mind and 4 of those guys are pros. Very few people know if they are actually beating the game. My advice for OP is only play when the game is good. You're not there to make the game you're there to make money. Good luck.

I’d go the other way and absolutely not open limp because if it’s limped they will take almost the whole pot. Raise and try to play bigger pots so the rake is a smaller percentage of the pot.

And I tighten up and steal less, obv.

Oops I forgot to say the max buy-in is capped at 300. I will say though there’s often not a whole lot of short stacks, and most people buy in for 200-300.

Hopefully I can beat it because it’s way closer than the other rooms (15m v 45m). The rake definitely doesn’t help though.

The 2/3 structure kinda negates that though. If they fold pew it's the same $4 you win in a regular 1/3 game.

Other than that, we need bigger pots on average which means we should raise larger pre which means we have to play a tighter range.

Only steal the blinds of bad players. They can make up for the rake with their post flop mistakes.

Prob never calling a raise with that drop, prob also scaling up raise sizes a bit while playing nittier overall

No, not "of course". The way people are talking in this thread is that a $6 drop is making the game too hard for many to beat. Well, the fact is that the vast majority don't beat the game to begin with. I remember the games when it was a $3 drop, then they added a $1 jackpot drop, then moved to a flat $5 drop. If anything, the games have become looser, have higher variance and are just as beatable as before.

I think I try to find somewhere else to play? Comparing to a "normal" 10% upto $5 then just post flop on a $10 open and $10 cbet the house takes an extra 2bb per hand, and 1bb extra if you take it on the turn. I feel like at best that drops 5bb an hour from your winrate and gives it to the house, and I doubt many people many are winning 15bb+ an hour at 1-2.
I drive 40m-1h to my local casinos, and would 100% drive an extra 30m past this place unless I was obviously making an extra 10bb an hour more.


Assuming it's the only option I open to $15 and tighten up a lot, because the house takes 33% of the pot if you raise and everyone folds. With $15 even HU with an open and 1/2 pot cbet you are only losing a "normal" 10% _if called_.

I think the most frightening thing might be your opening range from the BTN ... wouldn't be shocked if it should look like a tight CO range.


Also I would like to bet against "The top 10% of players can easily beat the game" in a normal 10% upto $5, no flop no drop game. Like I've never seen any pro. assume 10% of players are winners in any casino poker room.
And even if you are a winner, dropping 5bb an hour does insane things to a variance calculator.

Yes, when our limp/reraise attempt fails and it limps around then that will suck (with regards to rake). This will depend on how passive your game is, but in my experience the overwhelming vast majority of pots are raised preflop.

But when the limp/reraise succeeds, then we're probably doing far better as we get to either (a) build a hugenormous pot (when someone calls) that outruns the rake or (b) take down a very big pot preflop ~rake free (and much bigger than any pot taken preflop with just a single raise).

Gcluelesslimp/reraisingnoobG


Good catch, I missed that. Although part of blind stealing is also stealing small HU pots postflop with a cbet, and that is being taxed far more in this structure.

GcluelesstaxesnoobG


Certainly not hating on the idea that rake kills (which I fully agree with), but nowadays I think you'd be hard pressed to find a 10% up to only $5 maximum rake game pretty much anywhere (outside of Vegas at least?).

Gplaysina10%upto$8rake+$1BBJdropgame,andthatlikely won'tlasttoomuchlongereitherG

That's what you have to deal with if you want to play in LA and potentially other non-Indian casinos in California.

IIRC they aren't even allowed to to a percentage rake and have to do flat rake instead.

I honestly think I’m gonna try to beat the game anyway and just put more volume in, even with this rake and see how it goes.

Whether it’s the variance, the players, or the rake, if I bust my BR I’ll just switch to online and give 10NL a go. Sitting at only 800 BB so definitely a real possibility.

I mean, depending on the relative difference in skill level between you and your opponents, there is still a very good chance the game is beatable. It just won't be nearly as beatable as the same game with a better rake structure, that's all.

ETA: I'd also consider posting HHs in this forum (as opposed to just your PG&C thread) so that you get some better overall feedback.

Ggoodluck!G

Play the 2/5 with the $500 max at the Hustler....the players are not much better than the 2/3 ....slightly biggers pots so you can negate some of the rake...and you can still buy in for the $300