OP, how often is a pot raised in these games preflop? If a high percentage of hands are raised preflop and often going very multiway to handcuffing small SPRs (which are very difficult to play postflop thanks to the schooling effect), then a possible alternative (which I utilize) is to only raise in LP. Otherwise, limp/reraise the top of your range from all other positions (which will either take down huge dead money preflop rake/risk-free or otherwise setup a trivially profitable stackoff spot postflop). If the limp/reraise fails, just play extremely cautiously postflop in a very high SPR pot (leaning to perhaps making a small mistake by folding the best hand in a small pot postflop, otherwise attempting to build a large pot if you flop a monster). I would also be overlimping (not raising) speculative hands in LP (such as the weaker suited broadway mentioned above) as they simply play better in higher SPR pots than small SPR pots that have gone multiway (and this is especially true if you are not playing in a deepstack game); just be extremely cautious when you only flop TP (and again lean to nittily folding them in very multiway pots if you don't like the action you are seeing).

It's not a style for everyone, and there are certainly other styles that win. And you'll have to make sure you don't overplay weak hands (such as just TP) in high SPR multiway spots. But if you're having difficulty with the method you are using, it is something for you to at least consider.

Ggoodluck!G

Understood. Lately I have watched my buy ins disappear from missing flops and donating to the fish with my cbets. I would say all of my losses, or at least 90%, come from bet/folding flops or turns, or getting snapped by some trash in the river that had no business being in the hand. Thanks for your perspective.

Appreciate the responses in here. Don’t have the time to respond to all but my strat this weekend will be to tighten up pre, shut down on flops I miss (unless headsup), and I guess we are divided on if limping along is profitable or not? I would say it is and it isn’t. To the guy who asked me what I’m raising pre: Open to $10, add $2 for every limper, and add an extra blind if I am in sb or bb. My $25 sb raises over limps last weekend we’re consistently being called by multiples.

Most importantly, what are (a) stack sizes and (b) competency of opponents postflop?

If stack sizes are small (say like $200 effective) then you're printing money with big $25 raises with big pairs even with multiple callers.

But if stack sizes are large, and opponents are semi-competent postflop, then you may not be printing the money you think you are (especially OOP) in these spots.

GimoG

Lately stack sizes have been all over the place. I add on whenever I dip below 125 blinds. Been battling 300bb stacks down to 30bb’s. I do keep that in mind, probably not as much as I should, but I’m aware so that when I do connect I can set up stacks getting in if the right situation shows itself.

How often do you see 300bb stacks go in? How often is it not nuts over second nuts when they do?

If you're having difficulty in your game, you should seriously consider shortstacking it (say 65bbs) for a while. 300bb deep is a very difficult animal.

GgoodluckG

If 90% of your losses coming from doing this where is your profit coming from?

I think we should have prefaced that limping more with limpers requires some ability with post flop play in marginal cases. This may mean adjusting your bet amounts smaller to allow more maneuvering in marginal spots.

An adjustment could be just down betting your cbets in multi-way pots which allows you to double barrel more cost effectively. We talk about fat value betting when we smash but lots of money can be made on the margins as well.

I think I would first look at where my profits are coming from. My advice was to get you into more pots vs weaker post flop players from position. If your leak is a post flop one then I would tighten up even more as you plan to do.

Also a note on these games, when I RFI broadway cards or suited kings/suited queens and flop top pair (I will start raising suited queens in short handed games), I will often go for a delayed c-bet on the turn. My delayed c-bets get called by middle or bottom pair at an extremely high frequency, often a turned middle pair. This is a line that absolutely prints money against loose/passive players. If you're playing against villains that almost never check-raise a pair plus a draw you can fire close to full pot then half pot the river on bricks over and over again for value. I will even do this often on wet boards. In these games we're often as likely to be called for a 4/5ths pot bet by a flush draw on the turn as we are on the flop however our EV is much higher on the turn than it is on the flop and if villain makes a pair on the turn or river they will often put in a crying call for half pot on the river. Something to think about.

I was going to post something like this but felt it was too complex and deleted. The other reason why you limp with hands like all Axs + Kxs, QTs-Q8s, JTs-J7s is that when you hit top pair with your kicker you will get 2 streets of value as well and almost never be dominated whereas if you limp with connectors often times you will be out kicked. I add in ATo-A7o for the same reason if I have good position.

Limp heavy game is usually a symptom, not a cause, and the underlying problem is usually because the game does not have an aggressor.

Just think about games where there is an action player who's raising big every other hand - does the frequency of limping goes up or down in these situations?

It's much harder to play LAG in LLSNL, especially in the lower stake, because simply put, average players call way too often. As a result, most regulars adjust over time by playing less and less aggressive to minimize losses and eventually lead to a conundrum that is a passive limpfest.

These games suck, but it's the slowly becoming the new norm in LLSNL.

You really you shouldn't cap it. The only thing you need to worry about is people waking up with a monster. In the BB and you've got QQ and you can make it 100 and still get the limpers to call go for it!!!

People complain here all the time about getting too many limp callers, or they always call me, and to me it's just people who don't want to make huge pre-flop raises, or invest time to experiment with sizes to understand their elasticity.

the real issue is rake. LAGs pay way more rake and so are hurt the most in LLSNL games where the rake is the worst.