1/2. Weekday afternoon session. 8-handed.

Hero had just under 300 at the beginning of this hand. Everyone else covers.

PF
UTG +1 limped (Asian guy 30ish VPIP about 20%)
HJ limped (bad reg VPIP 90%)
CO limped (first time seeing this guy, probably a beginner, overfolds to hero's aggression).
H opened to 12 with 68 on the button.
SB called (first time seeing this guy, seemed fairly tight, vpip less than 10% so far, have not seen much aggression from him yet. At the beginning of the session, when H 3-bet on the button against two shorter-stacked villains, he had a painful tank before folding probably something like TT or JJ).
BB called, everyone else apart from CO called. 5 ways.

Flop (62)
634
SB x, BB x, UTG+1 led for 30, HJ folded.
H called (anyone prefers a raise or fold here?)
SB called, BB folded. 3-ways to see the turn.

Turn (152)
A
SB x, UTG+1 asked to see my stack, I had about 254 left at this point. He eventually decided to check.
Hero thought we probably had the best hand so far. Anyway, hero bet out 100 with 154 left.
SB tank called.
UTG+1 folded.

Is jamming the turn a bit of an overplay? Or anyone think we shall bet smaller? It seems to me that the sb is very capped. His check-call on the flop and turn with actions behind him is confusing to me.

River (352)
K
It's great that the FD does not get there, and there is no one liner to a straight.
SB checked to us.
Now, with 154 left, what range do we put SB in, and do we wanna jam to get thin value from 67s, 65s, 54s, 55, or do we check back?
If we do jam, is this the so called value-bluff? We can possibly get worse hands to call, and better hands (77-99) to fold?

Thanks everyone in advance.

I'm still stuck on the PF teaser-raise with cheese.

For a play like this to work, you need people to either fear you or be naturally weak-tight, because otherwise you're just sitting at the head of the table with a crappy hand.

Fold pf. You've gone this far, you might as well put it all in with 3PLK on the river.

Both are true most of the time at this table.

i find it hard to believe that someone would fold Ax assuming they flopped the ace high FD for 1/2 pot on the river. i just check and showdown.

raising pre is pretty terrible too. just limp. if you folded pre that wouldnt be terrible either. suited connectors suck a$$ multiway in NL.

I would limp behind preflop, but folding is fine. If you are going to raise, I would prefer to raise big, maybe take it down preflop or get it HU and plan to bluff representing a good hand preflop with the right flop, etc. It isn't a big mistake, but the small raise is not much different from calling a raise multiway with this hand, which is a mistake.

I am not sure why you think you are ahead when you get led into. When the ace hits, it isn't at all clear you are ahead 3-ways. Maybe this is good, but I would not get involved putting in so much without much of a hand.

Think I overlimp pre. I'm not raising on a table when we're going to go 6 ways to a flop or whatever.

Flop I consider folding, I know we have TP and its only 1/2 pot, but we're multiway and are going to have to fold almost every turn to another barrel.

Turn I xb since we're 3 ways.

River...I guess his range is small / mid pocket pairs without sets, Ax and some hands like 76s or KJ. I guess the question is whether we make enough by pushing out say 77 and KT to justify owning ourselves against his Aces.

Preflop is villain dependent.
If the Vs have a fairly high % of limp-folding, then the iso-raise looks perfectly fine; if the Vs tend to limp-call more often, then you should probably raise bigger and with a tighter range: ideally, you want to take down the pot preflop or go HU to the flop.
Personally, I would hardly ever overlimp, and definitely not with SCs or suited gappers.

As played, the outcome is not ideal, since we are 5 ways to the flop, so we should proceed very cautiously.

I am probably not good enough to fold otf, but a lead from a fairly tight UTG+1 (20% vpip) is often at least one pair, in which case we are ahead of 55, 65s, 67s, maybe 54s.
So, I am ok with calling, but certainly not raising.

Turn I just check back: even if we have the best hand, which 3-way is far from obvious, there are too few worse hands which are calling a bet.

As played, river is interesting. For sure SB looks very capped, and we have the best hand a fair amount of the times.
Betting to get 77-99 to fold seems a bit too thin to me.
On this runout, we do not have too many busted draws either, so a reasonable V should not bluff catch very light.
Against an unknown, as in this case, I would probably be happy taking my showdown value and check back.

At the preflop stage, I know that the limping players are the type who tend to play pretty weak against me, CO is a good example. When I raised and got so many flat-calls, and it's on him to complete the actions pre-flop, he chose to fold. I don't blame him, I wouldn't like a player like myself with a lot of raising and CRaising sitting on my direct left either.

At the time, I did not expect sb and bb to call. Once they both called, it gave the limpers too cheap the price to see the flop.

Personally I do not like overlimping in this situation, because it massively caps the range I can represent for some board runouts.

Agreeing that 68s can be a fold pre-flop. I thought if I was ever playing it, this position (btn) and this table dynamic should be the best.

True, but it's even less likely that SB would check the river with top pair (Ax) when FD missed.

Thanks for the range analysis for the SB.

I was thinking (welcome different thoughts to challenge me) SB shouldn't have Axss, otherwise he should check-jam after my big bet. I also believe SB should fold a lot of the Kxss on the turn, because the way I played the hand I could represent a lot of Axss, so his K is no longer good to pair up, neither should he be confident with his K flush draws.

I would overlimp with position multiway, because low stakes players play badly enough in limped pots for it to be profitable. Yeah, you can't represent 99+/AQ+, but you can always have a set. If you limped, the player would have probably led for close to pot and I would fold.

When we go 3-way to the turn, the problem is TPNK is often not ahead. Maybe they are bad enough to put in money with worse, but if you are ahead you are probably against draws.

Personally, with limpers on the button, I raise 88+/AJ+/KQ, and suited broadway. Would usually raise smallish sometimes limp small pps. Would usually limp sometimes raise Axs, and good suited connectors. Would generally limp or fold hands like 86s.

In a low stakes game, I look to get paid off with TPTK, TPGK, overpairs, and sets made by playing good hands preflop. Then bluff sometimes, particularly HU, in the right situations. No need to raise every suited gapper and play big pots with TPNK.

Think I just over-limp pre.

As played, I wouldn't necessarily think the SB is capped. On the flop, he naturally checks in flow, then there's a donk bet, and a call. He over calls. If your read that he's tight is correct, then his range arguably looks stronger than yours, when you don't raise on this dynamic board. If anything, you look somewhat capped.

On the turn, action checks to you, you bet, and he calls next to act, with UTG1 still in the hand, having asked to see how much you have left. I would assume SB has a fairly strong hand, possibly a monster, unless he's not as tight as we think, and he's floating two streets wide.

I don't think it was wise to bet so much on the turn, leaving so little behind. I'd have preferred a check back multi-way. If you think your image is fearsome, then a jam is going to generate the most fold equity. But what better hands is he folding out? Maybe just 77-TT.

The river is a weird spot. A jam will make the pot $500, with V getting 3:1 on a call. V may fold 77-TT, but if he flat called flop with some AX combo, like A7, A2, or A5, you're asking a lot if you expect him to fold. I doubt he's ever folding aces up, even if he suspects you have AK.

I also don't think he calls with any of the 1P combos you beat. So, no, it's not likely a jam folds out better but gets called by worse. It might fold out better. It might not.

Preflop I would just limp along. Typical loose passive games present an opportunity to get paid off if you hit. In other games, a larger raise or fold would be appropriate.
Not to be results oriented but an SPR of 4-5 is pretty bad for a suited gapper.

The flop is one of those where a donk bet is closer to theoretically correct. Hands like 77, 76, 65, 55, 54, etc and two pair and flush draws do well to donk bc your response is often call or fold.
It's marginal but I would call on the basis of equity not for steal value.

Turn bet is a similar problem to preflop in that it's the fraught middle path. I'd probably check it back but can see an argument for shoving. They probably don't like the ace or might even have a strong draw that's in a bind if facing an all in.

Preflop I would not be iso raising this hand. If I was iso raising, I would never go 12, but I don't go any lower than 10 as my open size without limpers at a 1/2 table, and if the table is really bad, I might cold open to 15 without limpers. So with limpers I am going even bigger with a very linear range when I expect them to limp call a lot. What are you raising to pre without limpers? What would you iso raise to if you have AA, KK, AK?

Turn not good imo as both players could hit the A, especially if they have spades. Our hand isn't worth 2/3 pot 3 ways on the turn.

River worse should not be calling you. He isn't calling with 76 but folding with 77. If he somehow calls with 76, he will probably call with 77 too.

On the turn SB should not be calling many hands like 77, 88, 99 that now fold river. Especially with his read as fairly tight.

You might beat some hands on the river when you check back, so I think check is probably better than bluffing and targeting hands like KsXs.

tbh, I think you're assigning too high a probability that a relative unknown at 1/2 will behave the way he "should." Especially one who's been very tight passive so far. I'd put plenty of Axss in his range.

Also it's not given that v should check jam AsXs on the turn. He doesn't generally get better to fold or get called by worse with that play. That's more a mistake players make than anything else. I also think that recs are going to call too much with non-nutted flush draws OOP so KsXs is also more likely that you think, but not as likely as AsXs and there are lower busted spade or pair + straight draws we still beat when we check back river. I think the fact that we win sometimes when we check back river but save $154 vs Ax+ is going to mean checking river is better than betting.

Let's say we had a hand like 8s7s, then you might have an argument that jamming river could be better than checking. Then he would only need to fold 31% of his range for us to profit, and folding is 0 EV because we never win. Even there I am not sure 31% of his range folds, but it is going to be a lot closer and is going to depend on whether he still has some hands like 99 and KsXs that decides to fold river or if he folded those on turn.

in a vacuum I don't hate opening 86s preflop but getting 4 callers here is a terrible result and almost certainly a sizing issue that we should have figured out before we did this.
as played flop call is fine I think we absolutely need to pot control this hand
turn is interesting. I would not bet here I think betting 100 and getting jammed on is a terrible outcome as well that we're going to face a good amount of the time here 3 ways. UTG+1 definitely puts us on an ace and folds however SB call probably scares him just as much. there's kind of a line/speech/timing tell here where he almost certainly threw away one pair less than aces. UTG+1 was most likely to have 77-99 in this hand.
on the river I don't like shove for value at all. I think SB can have a lot of ace high/king high flush draws that are just going to call off facing this runout and SPR. SB will have hands like 54, 65, 67, 55, etc but a lot of these hands probably just fold I would imagine with our line. he can also just have gotten here with the flopped nuts and we've been owning ourselves the entire hand. what would really be our pure bluffs here? we're getting to the river here with so few bluffs that shoving this thin doesn't make much sense.

Preflop sizing best to worst: 0$ > 20$ > 2$ >>>>> anything else

I don't agree with the order and would probably go for $2, but agree those are all better than $12.

going larger pre is definitely the play we want to actually have a chance of taking the pot down without seeing a flop

Read your description of how people see you. I'd check 90%+ of my good hands to you and never check jam the turn as I fold out your bluffs that you will bet on the river and get called if you really have a good hand.

Reveal time:



The best thing I have done is probably have this hand posted here, and I have received loads of constructive feedback from you guys and they are priceless, especially, but not exclusively to:

- Man of Means.
You revealed the quintessential problem PF.
My bet size preflop was not intended to take down the pot straight away.
I wanted to play post-flop up to 3-ways with this hand without too low of an SPR. 5-handed to see the flop was an unexpected disaster, and was not often seen at this table, regardless of the opening size.
Surely in the hindsight, a larger opening size can get sb to fold out his rubbish K2ss. I believe sb also got out of line in this hand, too.

- Mlark
Bingo on his range! And your thought process is more coherent than mine. Appreciate it.

- Jay S
I agree with you 100%.
Just because I didn't play K2ss on the sb, and I wouldn't call with K2ss to the large bet on the turn without much left, at the time I completely did not expect this hand to be in sb' range. And that's a big mistake in my thinking process.

- Polarbear1955
It's very helpful to know how people adjust their play against me. Thanks.

- Docvail
I remember in a different thread I posted, you said to me, if I do not get my value hands paid often enough coz I'm a girl, I shall bluff more.

'Bluffing more' does not exclude to mandatory bluffing spots that both you and I will do it. It means that when it comes to a spot when your bluff might not fold out better, I had a higher chance to get them to fold out better.

From the turn, I have already turned my hand into a bluff.

With my image, I still think a jam on the river is the highest EV play.

It didn't work out in this hand but it's not the end of the world. It's my first time playing with this player at the SB, hopefully he likes the actions in this casino, particularly that the girls are gutsy, he should come back to pay for my thick value hands next time, so should the nitty grinder who witnessed all this.

My recollection is that I said you should bluff more if your image is such that your opponents think you just always have it. I believe that was in response to a comment you made about the regs in your cardroom knowing you (but I may be misremembering the context leading to my advice).

If it's your first time playing with this fellow in the SB, that may not be his read on you.

That said, your reply here is fair, inasmuch as I think it's easy for me and everyone else on this forum to fall into the trap of giving advice that is not only based on more limited info, but also tends to presuppose bad outcomes, leading us to advise people to play a hand differently than they actually played it. It wouldn't surprise me if the advice given in one thread often contradicts that in another thread.

If that's what I've done, my apologies. But maybe it's not. Perhaps the general advisory to bluff more has merit, but you still need to consider your spots.

Hypothetically, if you would benefit from bluffing 10% more than you've been, the additional 10% should be in spots where your bluffs have the highest chance of getting through, and / or you need to commit more to the bluff.

As for your V, yes, his turn call with so little stack depth remaining seems pretty bad. I'm not sure if his river call, getting over 3:1, is bad or not, but it probably is.

Either way, I still think you'd have been able to put more pressure on him on the river if you hadn't bet so large on the turn. Either a turn jam, or a check back (or perhaps a smaller, ~1/3 pot bet), followed by a river jam is likely going to get more folds than your 2/3 pot bet followed by a <1/2 pot jam.

Hand is a train wreck. Worst of 4 options preflop. Then worst of three options on flop, fold or raise would be better. Badly misplayed on every street.