Hey guys in my last session I was put into some tough spots by the fish, they seem to have no awareness of the size of the pot, or stack-to-pot-ratios or anything like that. They don't even consider what their opponent is holding they just bet. It seems they have no rhyme or reason for betting the amounts that they do, how do you deal with it? I find that's its best to be cautious and give them credit for the nuts and fold, what do you guys do?

Here are 4 examples from my session last night.

Example 1
-3 limpers, Hero raises to $15 with AA, EP limper calls.
-Pot is ($35) board is 789r, villain goes all in for $150...?
What do you do and why?

Example 2
UTG limps hero has JJ and raises to $12, UTG re-raises all-in for $300...
What do you do and why?

Example 3
MP opens for $50...? Hero looks down at QQ...
What do you do and why?

Example 4
Limped pot 6 handed, Flop is 357r, Hero has a set of 3's and bets $10, V1 raises to $25, V3 goes all-in for $200, Hero...?
What do you do and why?

1 easy fold, its 2p+. 2p or set are shipping because they are afraid of the straight draw. straight may ship too just because fish are silly.
2 easy fold. Fish could ship with TT/JJ here becuase they dont know how to play postflop, but they could also ship with KK or AA and then high five their other oldmannit friends for playing it the best way possible. It probably isnt QQ though because old men wont ship it, and people can play it postflop.
3 either ship or fold. Its the same as above, except now you have basically 50% equity with no reads, so if you think it's KK/AA you fold if you think it's JJ/TT you fold.
4 I really dont know. for the most part I am never folding a set on the flop, but someone putting that much in the pot seems like 2p+ which you are pretty far behind because of higher sets and straight. if he shows 75 or maybe some fish hand like A7, oh well.

There is definitely a rhyme and reason to what fish do, it's just they each have their own reasons, and you have to learn what it means. For instance, this one particular fish would regularly jam allin for ANY AMOUNT of money in the blinds, whether the pot was limped or raised. He'd go allin from $100 to $1000 in a 1/2 game. I thought it was bizarre as hell until I finally saw a few showdowns when people called. He was always holding some middle pocket pair like 77-TT. One day he volunteered to explain himself, and said he does this because "there's no way to play that hand". Basically his belief is that there is never a favorable flop since opponents could have anything in a loose live game, so he's just going to take his chances and assume he has the best hand, and if someone has AA he just got unlucky. What he never understood was that the only thing ever calling him is a better hand of course. Obviously I never explained this to him.

I've seen other fish snap overbet flops and such, and it's almost always to "protect their hand". If they flop 2 pair or better, they dont want anyone drawing out on them. They just want to scoop the $50 or whatever thats out there and be done with it. They dont know what valuebetting is or how to extract money from someone. They are just bitter from so many suckouts that they dont even want to play postflop.

Same thing goes for enormous preflop raises. I have seen players raise $50 with QQ-AA utg countless times, pick up the blinds, and say "better to win a small pot than lose a big one".

Your hand examples are no surprise to me, and show an obvious universal thinking between most fish.

You pay attention to how villain bets in other hands you aren't involved in.

There is one V I routinely play with in the 2/5nl game. He will call any raise with ATC or pockets and if the flop has no Ace or King and he has ANY pair, he will c/r your cbet and if you ship it he will snap call you and then he'll flip over his bottom/mid pair like its the stone cold nuts and then say "I put you on AK". Hell do this up to 150bb. The only thing funnier is how often it actually works out for him and how few people actually catch on.

So my adjustment?

I NEVER raise him with AK, I raise with 88-AA, 98s-QJ and never cbet if I miss and bet when I have TPMK or better. He then c/r I then shove he then snap calls and says "I put you on AK", I show TPMK or overpair and then he berates me for being a donk and I stack him 90% of the time.

So my point is you pay attention to what V's bets mean and then you adjust.

So what do you do with AK lol?

Limp AK obv

Yeah, vs this V why would I ever raise him w AK?

before peeking at spoiler, my experience tells me:

i) fold
ii) fold
iii) ship
iv) fold

This is good advice. I would also add: pay attention to live reads. These sorts of Villains are "panic button" players. So, they're usually "anxious" in some way or "very relaxed". "Anxious" when they've a two-pair hand and don't want others to suck-out on them. "Relaxed" when they've got the nuts and waiting for pay-day.

But, seriously, confirm your live reads by watching showdowns. Put the live reads in the memory bank and save them for another hand.

Finally, be nice to these guys. Congratulate them when they win. Commiserate with them when they lose. Positively reinforce their way of playing.

I saw someone push over a cbet 3-way for 4xpot. The flop was Q98 2-flush. Players got allin and both had AQ. I said to the overbetter that I thought he had some big draw, maybe with a pair. He responded "I wouldn't do that with a draw." They don't understand poker theory or anything.

Without a very specific read, don't play big pots without a big hand. In general, when I have AA preflop, I'm not betting $15, I'm shipping. I want to be that guy with pocket 9s calling a $15 bet in position with $300 stacks.

So all you have to do to be profitable with AA is ship it? Nice hand sir.

I want to be that guy with AA who people keep calling and folding rivers to, scooping pot after pot.

Value for one, you said he's so loose preflop there's still some value to be made there, even if they end up small pots that he just check/folds to. Plus there's everyone else at the table. Seems kinda unlikely that you can repeatedly get it HU against him over and over, so you might as well raise and hope someone else joins along too.

wow you play better than i would i guess

1: fold, he probably has 2 pair and doest knwo how to value bet it. not suprised to see a set though

2: fold, fish are scared with QQ and KK bc they dont want an ace on the flop. best case he has AK bc hes scared of post flop play. easy fold.

3: easy ship, the fish is scared to play post flop with 99-JJ or AK.

4: i wouldve called here, fish could have top 2 or 77+ easily. if he has the str8 u could boat up. good fold tho

It depends. You need to know these particular villain's tendencies just from playing with them a little. There's a guy who I play with alot who does stuff like this and you jsut have to get used to the type of spots he likes to do this. Hand 4 is is eerily similar to a spot against the guy I was talking about. I called and he had AQ. 1 and 3 are calls, 2 is an easy fold.

LOL

Notice how in all 3 of the ones you folded, Villain had a better hand. That's because he was acting aggressively in response to aggression. When fish overbet raise, it's super strong, but when he opens or just leads out on street they have a much wider range. Although example 3 is always 99-JJ for the villain

LOL, what is this crap you're posting again?

According to your spoiler, you handled your question perfectly. Yes, you're that good of player.

Good try.

In general, folks just way underbet AA preflop. It's an incredible hand to get it in with preflop. It's just another hand when you see a flop. Now, of course, you can't just push all the time. But once there's some folks involved and a bit of money in the middle, a shove is often the best play. You'll often win a small pot right there, occaisonally you'll get to play for stacks with a massive advantage. I actually think letting folks in relatively cheaply when playing deepish is leak.

How often do you get called overshoving preflop with aces?

1-fold
2-fold
3-stack size?
4-instacall

Also: can't believe people are advocating folding bottom set for 100bb effective in hand 4, despite the cold 3-shove from V2....seems results oriented.

With him being at the table, he changes the dynamic so much that I raise with the range I stated in the other post and then just rep AK if an A or K hits.

Perhaps its incorrect, I dunno. My adjustment was basically widening my raising range and limp/calling with AK whenever he is in the hand. Which makes for an interesting theoretical discussion. What is the optimal adjustment vs a V who will play 100% of your raises with ATC and assume you have AK and will fold if an A or K hits.

My thoughts were that you increase your raising range and then simply "rep" AK if either an A or K hits. Conversely, if I limp and an A or K hits he NEVER puts me on it because obviously I would have raised if I had it and thus I can stack his Ax hand.

I think my adjustment is correct.

Thoughts?

Maybe I'll start a thread in Poker Theory and we can hash it put there.

A key question here is whether ATC Villain will continue with A10-AQ on an Axx flop when you've raised preflop. If ATC Villain is disciplined enough to fold these hands because he believes he's "value-owned" by AK, then your approach has some merit.

But can someone who's so loose preflop be so disciplined postflop? Is this ATC guy just a classic LP? His habit of shoving any pair on a non-A board suggests not. These guys are selectively aggressive post-flop, and, in my experience, seem to get a special thrill from winning with trash against premiums.

I like the idea of widening your raising range as an isolation tactic, especially as you suggest that you have a significant postflop edge. But do other regulars realize that you're isolating and 3bet/4bet you more?