I can't speak for others, but I think we have a gap in many posts between what OP is capable of and the correct play. Almost any book and most posts describe correct play.

The way I read it, Op has a problem with these hands in these situations and is asking what they should do, not what book play is?

We have to learn to crawl before we can walk. I think the best advice for OP is stay away from these situations until OP learns how to be comfortable with them? That only comes with time and experience.

The problem with this plan (not that any other plan is much greater) is that there are 3 players still to act after us, each of which could have smashed this flop. So now we're just supposed to punt stacks, keeping in mind that one guy behind us is 183bbs deep where we only got a lol 4% of stacks versus him preflop?

GhateseveryplanpostflopG

Tough spot. Against 2 opponents with the same range:

You have 33% equity vs (QT+, Q9s, Q8s, J9s, QQ, TT, 88)
You have 29% equity vs. (above range plus, Q9o, Q8o, J9o)

Assuming all the money goes in against V2, you need about 2:1 odds (I think because the numbers don't quite add up if V1 called pre yet still has $270 to shove). It's pretty close so I wouldn't beat yourself up too much. I'd probably call in game since I know the results (ha). But seriously with backdoor nut flush, nut straight, top set, and counterfeit possibilities, I'd probably gii.

Sucks these guys went nuts with mediocre hands, but I would fold swell to that action on that board

@quemado I agree that not every player will be comfortable with this play. However, I think OP is capable of it. We know he covers all Vs and has given us pretty good reads on his opponents. He's paying attention to the right things, now he needs to act on them and make them moneyz.

I hate this thinking, super MUBSy. Actually, I love it... as long as it's in the heads of people I'm playing. Sure, someone could wake up with a massive hand but it's statistically unlikely. Let's say I'm hero and I raise to 200. You're on the button on this board with a bet and a raise in front of you. It's going to cost you nearly half your stack to continue... what hands are you really going to continue with? Are you going to shove a 150 BB stack in on a FD?

The chances of any 1 opponent flopping 2p are 25:1 against. 8:1 with a set. I'm happy to raise here, both for value and to protect your hand. It's much harder for your AA to hold up 5 ways than two, and by flatting the first bet you're putting yourself to more decisions down the road, which can just compound our mistakes and bleed chips. I think raising here is BY FAR a better option that flatting the donk bet.

I think hand is played fine. I wonder what would the advice be if btn shows 88 here. If we min raise sb and someone comes over the top we are hating life.

Yes, it's an SPR of 5 in a 5-way pot on a board which hits preflop cold calling ranges well, and we're facing a "tight, straightforward" player who raised over a bet and a call, and another player's shove. This is much different than an SPR of 5 HU against standard villains.

SPR is way overrated. It's just a guideline to help us when we aren't sure what to do. If someone doesn't know what to do here then IMO SPR is an argument for a fold anyway.

Why are we worried about being outplayed by fish? And if our opponents are not fish, maybe we should table change.

I don't think this is a tough spot anyway. One of my biggest personal leaks is calling too much. I don't often lay down the best hand and I wouldn't think long before folding this.

+1 to aftrglw's post.

Edit: To people that think this is a call, maybe you can provide some ranges to justify the call/shove? Plenty of people have provided some ranges to justify a fold.

We're not afraid of being outplayed by a fish. We are afraid of being outplayed by 4 fish while OOP with a strong 1-pair hand.

I'd bet more PF if this gets 4 callers. The sweet pot is always to bet an amount that gets 1-2 callers. Without a read I'd play it exactly the same way. With a read that SB overvalues hands I'd minpop him and fold to BTN shove.

The problem I think is people ITT are justifying a call/shove by doing the math (which is slightly +EV at best) instead of trusting the reads and the fact that this is llsnl. When two players go to war for stacks on a damp board like this, there's nothing wrong with jumping ship.

It depends. A significant percentage of the regs I play against have a range that consists of made hands that beat TPTK and are afraid of a draw getting a free card if they check. I've instafolded in similar situations when facing a donk bet, but there are also opponents who I would never fold against.

If you never fold the best hand in multi-way pots, you're not playing them right.

If SB had not bet, I honestly would consider checking this flop.

If SB checks you have to bet here IMO you will definitely get called by worse ie flush draws, straight draws, Top Pair. The aim of the game is to maximise profit by consistently getting players to call the biggest bet with lesser hands and yeah sure sometimes they will hit their straight, two pair, flush etc, their suppose to. But our job is to make them pay the highest price to get there and then pay them little when they do.

I'm surprised that so many people like the call on the flop. SPR is about 2 against the SB, a little under 5 against the BTN, but what about the other stack sizes? The BTN probably does have the biggest stack and is actually a tight player (which means he will likely fold to your raise so chances are you'll be getting involved with players that have an SPR of 3 or less.

Also, that donk bet doesn't mean the SB is strong. $70 might seem like a big bet to that player, but if he has a monster, wouldn't he bet more to prevent being drawn out on, or wouldn't he try a large c/r? I like our chances against the SB. Against the other players, we may be ahead or we may not be ahead. With a strong hand, small SPRs and outs against two pair, I'm raising it big on the flop. Don't minimum raise it. Calling often makes the rest of the hand pretty difficult to play IMO and could lead to big mistakes in big pots.

We also have the ace of spades which gives us a backdoor flush draw, which makes me like my hand a little more and makes me like a raise on the flop a little bit more.

I'm really surprised at all the comments that suggest a limp-reraise. I thought the consensus here was doing that is a fishy play. The limp-reraise is something that can be a good play if the table is really aggressive, but the OP doesn't say anything about the players being aggressive PF. All he said was the table was really loose PF. So why should we go for a limp-reraise if we're not even confident that it will get raised behind us (if we limp in)? I'd prefer to just raise it bigger PF. I can't help but suspect that some of the comments about the limp-reraise are a result of results oriented thinking.

minraise flop

Ok l/rr IF big raises are not thinning the field AND someone will almost always raise over limpers.

I admit here we don't know that both these things are true. L/rr is a possible solution if the conditions are exactly right for it.

For some opponent hand ranges and playing tendencies, betting this sort of flop in early position against many opponents is a potential reverse implied odds situation. It's not an automatic bet.

I have check folded AA on these sort of boards before vs 4+ opponents though usually because i pick up a physical tell someone likes their hand a lot before I act.

Sounds daft but I actually check folded AA on a 77J flop. One V had a terrible and involuntary smirking tell when ever he hit big, I saw him do it as the flop was dealt so I x/f. The smirking V proceeded to x/c his hand to the river where he raised allin and got called by QQ and AJ. V had a 7.

I agree that in a vacuum, raising a donkbet with AA is not automatic. There're plenty of board textures and situations where I could easily fold AA. But this is not one of them, and assuming V's are callin $22 UTG opens with a reasonable range of cards, there's not too many hands they could have that smashed this flop. I think the glaring mistake here was flatting the donk bet. Here raising > folding > flatting.

The potential RIO by raising is offset by the vast majority of times the hands behind you will fold. If stacks are deep and someone comes over the top we can consider letting our hand go. AA is a good hand, but it's hard to improve. We're gonna make it to showdown with 1p hand the majority of the time. If we're not willing to play our AA aggressively post flop, then what's the point of raising to $22 pre? It sounds like we're essentially playing our AA for set mining value because we're so afraid of having them cracked.

Flatting the donk bet makes no sense because we have no idea where we stand and it makes that hand really hard to play. What's our plan for the turn? Most turn cards will either complete the flush or could feasibly pair our opponents' kickers... Are we planning to call down 3 streets of donk bets giving opponents a chance to catch up and bust us? If you can't raise here then just lolfold and find a better spot. It'll save you money in the long run...

This.

@ChipKelly,Venice,Answer,Javi


We're calling you out!